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A Defense Of The Revelation 12 Sign: Part 4


This is the fourth article dealing specifically with arguments presented against the significance of the Revelation 12 Sign.  You can read the first three here, here, and here.  We also have the internet's largest compendium of information on the September 2017 alignment here.

My confidence in the significance of this sign has actually grown since writing these articles.  I've made it sort of my mission to prove this thing wrong, but I haven't been able to.  Debunkers like Richardson, McHyde, Crone, and Faulkner are not dealing with the specific claims and evidence surrounding this sign and instead are continuing to present strawman arguments.  For example, they argue that this sign is not unique and occurs every eleven or twelve years.  Clearly that's not true.  

I appreciate a good debate.  It keeps us all honest and helps us discover the truth of the matter.  However, I think this debate has now taken a wrong turn.  Some of the aforementioned men (among others) are labeling those studying this sign as rapture date setters.  That's not true and in my mind falls into the category of false accusation.  There are definitely a few gung-ho YouTubers saying the rapture will happen on September 23rd or will happen on September 21st, etc.  However, this sign's main proponents have been careful to say that the day and hour of the rapture are unknown.  The only date being set is the date of the sign itself.  And how can you argue with that?  If the alignment we're watching is indeed the Revelation 12 Sign then I can guarantee you that the sign itself will occur on September 23rd.  It's a mathematical and physical certainty.

Scottie, I, and others do argue that the sign appears to be connected to the rapture, however we have carefully and frequently said that we do not know if the rapture will occur on September 23rd.  It could, I don't want to argue it can't, but we also acknowledge that the sign can still be the sign and the rapture might still happen at an earlier or later date.  There is biblical precedent for signs and events happening at the exact same time and there is also precedent for them not happening at the exact same time.  We can't see into the future with our own eyes.  All we can do is diligently read and study God's Word and where we've erred, make corrections.

Some of the debunkers also continue to argue that studying this sign is astrology.  That is a really unfair and tragic accusation and is only going to bolster frustration and animosity in the Christian community.  That accusation is patently false.  I have yet to find a single Christian discussing this topic who is actually worshiping the sun, moon, or stars or who is using the constellations like a horoscope, so I would encourage Christians making that accusation to cool it.  Better to argue for or against the alignment on September 23rd on the merits and evidence, not on accusations and personal attacks.

Personally, I think some of the things being thrown around have actually served to reveal the character of certain individuals previously seen as good, sensible Christian leaders.  It has also served to reveal a certain lack of humility before God's Word where interpretation bias is placed above the Bible and anything that contradicts that person's eschatological dogma is explained away.

I greatly appreciate the humility expressed by Scott Clarke, Adam at the Parable of the Vineyard, and others, who acknowledge what lies in store for us if we're wrong.  We'll be a laughingstock.  We'll be mocked.  In fact, we are already mocked.

However, I don't yet see the same level of humility from the other side.  I haven't heard one of the debunkers yet acknowledge what the consequences will be if they're wrong and they spent their last few months on earth disparaging God's "great sign" and telling Believers and the world not to care or pay attention.  Big ministries jumped on board when it came to Y2K, 2012, the Blood Moons, and other extremely ambiguous and even unbiblical occurrences.  Yet here we are only four months away from the possible fulfillment of a sign that the Bible calls GREAT, which has an entire chapter in the middle of Revelation dedicated to it and most of the big ministries are saying "that's just astrology" or "that's just date setting".  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  They were all over the 2015 Shemitah economic collapse theory, which had more to do with American history then it did with the Bible, yet here is something straight from the Bible... and silence.

I've been sharing this thought with readers: I find it fascinating that the blood moon tetrad made national and international headlines in 2014 and 2015 (as did Y2K and the Mayan nonsense in 2012).  Books were written and some of the biggest names in Bible prophecy talked it up to no end.  Multiple times headlines appeared on the first page of Drudge and so forth.  Yet here is a sign that is described in explicit detail in the Bible, called "great", and possibly even connected directly to the rapture per Revelation 12:5, and there is silence.  The world and the Church are asleep.

Perhaps the intransigent proponents of no-signs-of-any-kind Imminency will be caught off guard when Jesus comes like a thief in the night.  Not for a loss of salvation, but for a loss of the Crown of Righteousness described in 2 Timothy 4:8.  They may also experience the great sorrow of knowing more could have boarded the Ark in time if they had taken the signs seriously and paid attention.

Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
- Revelation 3:3

This verse clearly implies that some will know at what time the Lord will come.  Both the context and verse of 1 Thessalonians 5:4 imply the exact same thing:

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

And regarding "no one knows the day or hour".  About what event was Jesus speaking?  The rapture?  The second coming?  The end of the world one thousand years later?  Does Jesus' saying mean that no one would ever know or know one knew until it was later revealed?

Some Christians argue that Jesus Himself still doesn't know.  I think that line of thinking is patently unbiblical.  Jesus had humbled Himself into the body of a man, with all its earthly limitations.  Yet He was later raised from the dead, glorified, seated at the right hand of God, and restored to omnipresence (Ephesians 4:10).  He revealed new prophetic knowledge later in the New Testament that was not yet known at the time He spoke the oft-repeated "no one knows" saying in the Olivet Discourse.  For example, He revealed the "mystery" of the rapture to the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).  He also revealed the entire vision of Revelation to the Apostle John (Revelation 1:1).  New knowledge.  Daniel 12:4 supports this proposition:

But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

For an unspecified time, certain prophetic knowledge was "shut up" or "sealed".  Yet that sealed knowledge will be unsealed at the time of the end.  I believe the biblically-given time of unsealing was when the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given to the Apostle John per Revelation 22:10:

And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Ok, the rant ends here.  Thank you for bearing with me.  I originally meant to write this post to address a few specific concerns brought up by a humble brother on YouTube.  This isn't designed to be a "you're wrong" rebuttal, but simply a presentation of evidence that upholds the significance of the sign.

Here's the brother's video:


The first and main argument he presents is that we are imposing on the text to argue that Revelation 12:1-2 describes an astronomical alignment.  He presents two pieces of evidence to support this argument:

1. John was caught up to Heaven in Revelation 4:1 and all of his visions henceforth take place there, including the sign in Revelation 12.  The sign is a sign that takes place in Heaven, not in the sky.

2. To attempt to use the mention of sun, moon, and stars as signifying an astronomical alignment doesn't work because there are other Scriptures (such as Revelation 1:16) that mention the sun, moon, and stars that are clearly not describing the real sun, moon, and stars.

My response: For starters, the Greek word for "heaven" in Revelation 12:1, ouranos, can mean either Heaven (as in God's extra-dimensional realm) or the sky proper.  In fact, Strong's lists the sky proper as the word's primary meaning and Heaven (capital 'H') as its secondary meaning (see here).

Words have meaning and the fact that John receives his vision in Heaven doesn't change what the text plainly says in Revelation 12.  The verses that he presents as evidence against reading Revelation 12 as an astronomical sign such as Revelation 1:16, are not good evidence because Revelation 1:16 uses a simile.  It doesn't say that Jesus' face is the sun, it says His face shone like the sun.  Major difference there.  Revelation 12:1-2 contains no similes.  It doesn't say that the woman is clothed with something like the sun or has something like the moon under her feet.  It plainly says she is clothed with the sun and has the moon under her feet.  This is a real astronomical event.  On top of that, the stars that are mentioned in Revelation 1:16 are interpreted within the text itself to be angels (Revelation 1:20).  They are not actual stars, whereas there is no such qualifier for the twelve-star crown in Revelation 12.  In fact, since Revelation 12:1-2 is describing the actual sun and moon and Virgo is the only woman visible in the sky, it seems like a given that the twelve stars are real celestial luminaries, as well.  When you read Revelation 12:1-2 literally, there is no way to read it besides as an actual astronomical event.  Any other interpretation begins reading into the text and the text loses its prima facie meaning.

On top of that, the sign is further qualified by being called a "great sign".  Genesis 1:14 tells us that the sun, moon, and stars were created for signs.  Luke 21:25 tells us that there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars preceding the Lord's return.  Luke 21:11 tells us there will be "great signs" in the sky.  Revelation 12:1-2 is the only specific sign given in the entire New Testament consisting of the sun, moon, and stars and it is one of only two signs called "great" (the other being Revelation 15:1).

He also brings up Revelation 15:1, another "great sign".  First, that may have been identified in the sky in 2024.  Second, the verse makes no mention of the sun or moon and the stars are explicitly called angels, so there may be no need to find an astronomical alignment in Revelation 15.  If the sign has no sun, moon, or stars, then there would be nothing to see in the sky.  The same principle would apply to the second sign in Revelation 12 in verses 3-4.  The sign of the dragon makes no mention of the sun or moon.  The stars may be the same as the stars in verse 9, which are angels.  So again, a "sign" so-to-speak, but no astronomical alignment.

Revelation 12:1-2 gives us no room to maneuver like we can with Revelation 12:3-4 and Revelation 15:1.  The sign of the woman is a real, astronomical event.  No similes are used.  No comparisons are made.  Real sun, moon, and stars are invoked.  This is a Genesis 1:14 sign if there ever was one.  And the alignment on September 23, 2017 appears to be the only perfect fit with Revelation 12 from 6,000 BC to 4300 AD.  That's pretty chilling when you think about it.

Regarding John witnessing these things in Heaven and not on earth, I don't think much needs to be said about that.  His visions largely have to do with the earth.  Heavenly things occur (such as the opening of the seals, blowing of trumpets, and so forth), but all of the heavenly events correlate directly with earthly events.  The focus is on the earth and what happens on the earth during the Tribulation.

Second, he argues that this astronomical alignment will not cause fear, but the signs in Luke 21:25-26 appear to cause great fright.  There isn't anything scary about Jupiter slowly exiting Virgo's womb.

My response: Luke 21:25 refers to "signs" plural.  Multiple signs are in view.  Perhaps these signs include all of the astronomical events mentioned in Revelation (sun turning dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling from heaven, hail from heaven, Wormwood, Revelation 12, Revelation 15, etc).  The text doesn't specify which of the signs cause fear.  Also, there is no direct connection in the text itself between the signs in the heavens in verse 25 and the fear people have in verse 26.  In fact, the signs are separated from the description of fear by the "roaring and tossing of the sea" and a prima facie reading of the passage tells us people are afraid of things that are "coming on the world".  Something is in heaven and is coming down to earth and people are apprehensive and terrified.  This isn't an astronomical alignment they are afraid of.  I personally think this can only refer to some or all of the judgments described in Revelation involving heavenly objects (like Wormwood or giant hail) or possibly the descent of satan and his angels described in Revelation 12:9, 12.  Perhaps even both.

Third, he repeats an argument we've addressed before, which is that the woman is not clothed with the sun because the disc of the sun is not over her torso.  You can read our full response here.  He argues that suggesting the woman is clothed in sunlight is stretching the text.

My response: In English, "sun" and "sunlight" are two different words.  In biblical Greek they are the same word, helios.  There is no separate word for "sunlight" in Koine and therefore no stretching of the text is involved here.  Helios (the word used in Revelation 12:1) can be sunlight even when a definite article is included as shown in 2 Samuel 12:11.

Additionally, the sun is significantly smaller than Virgo and could never fully clothe any part of her body if only the disc is in view.  This becomes the ultimate subjective argument if a standard is applied that the text itself doesn't require.  He is arguing that the disc of the sun clothing her shoulder isn't sufficient, but why not?  It can only ever cover a very small part of her body regardless of where it is positioned:


In fact, the only inner part of her body ever clothed by the disc is a small portion of her lower left side and left hip as shown above (the red line being the sun's unchanging path every year).  It's obvious that the woman could never be clothed with the disc of the sun.  However, she can be clothed in sunlight.

One of our readers also pointed out that in the ancient world of John's day the shoulder contained the most important piece of clothing: the brooch.  People didn't have nice fitted pants and shirts.  Instead they wore clothing that was gathered together at the shoulder and held together by a brooch.  This is exactly where the sun is positioned in relation to Virgo on September 23rd and in proportion to the entire constellation, the disc of the sun is barely bigger than a brooch would be on a real person:


The Emperor Domitian pictured above was the ruler at the time John received his vision on Patmos.  Notice the circular brooch on his left shoulder just like the sun on Virgo's shoulder.  Here are some other images of brooches from the ancient world:








There's even a brooch on our own Statue of Liberty:


Fourth, he argues that this 42 week pregnancy should be a 40 week pregnancy if it was perfect.

My response: To me, this argument is adding a standard that the text itself doesn't require.  It's true that a 40 week gestation is the most common.  However any pregnancy between 37 and 42 weeks is considered completely normal.  42 week pregnancies are extremely common.  Even 44 week pregnancies are not unheard of.  Besides, who is to say there isn't some significance to 42 weeks?  According to Micah 5:3, the woman giving birth signifies the soon onset of the 70th Week.  The 70th week consists of two 42 month periods.  In addition there were 42 generations from when the promise of Messiah was given to Abraham to when the Messiah actually arrived.  Is it any wonder God would want to emphasize 42 in relation to the second arrival of Messiah?  You might say it was 42 generations until the birth of Messiah, and it will be 42 weeks until the birth of the Church.

Fifth and lastly, he argues that the planet Jupiter leaving the four main stars of Virgo's womb for 57 days is proof against it.

My response: I'll admit this is my only lingering doubt.  I now know that Revelation 12:1-2 describes an actual astronomical alignment.  I see no way around it.  I also think the evidence for a Revelation 12:5 rapture connection is completely overwhelming and is the only way to interpret Scripture using Scripture.  This is one of the main reasons Ironside, Darby, and other famous pre-trib scholars believed in a pre-trib rapture.  Even modern scholars, including Chuck Missler and Michael Svigel argue for this interpretation.

But about this objection (regarding Jupiter), I think the first observation I have is that the path of Jupiter's retrograde is always a bit longer than Virgo's womb.  In other words, in no year does the retrograde occur completely within the four-star quadrangle - it's an impossible standard.  If you go through my chart in The Celestial C-Section and use Stellarium to look at Jupiter's path in each of the years in which a near match occurred, you'll notice something immediately: in no other year does Jupiter come as close to staying within the quadrangle as it does in 2017.  Even when Jupiter does leave the quadrangle this year, it's path outside the womb is barely perceptible before it stops and returns.

He argues that saying this is just a "baby bump" or the baby kicking isn't good enough, but why?  Says who?  Babies do kick after all.  A mother's womb does grow in size does it not?  I think when all is said and done, this is again us fallible humans trying to fit God's sign in our box using our rules.  Perhaps those 57 days just barely outside the womb have some significance or meaning.  After all, as mentioned in the previous paragraph, there is no way for Jupiter to stay exclusively within the quadrangle in any year, let alone 2017.  This is the best, most precise alignment in history and nothing else comes close (looking over a 10,300 year period from 6,000 BC to 4,300 AD).

5 is the number of grace and 7 is the number of completion.  This is Hebrew year 5777 and will transition to year 5778 when the sign occurs.  The 57th presidential term just ended and the 58th just began.  The surface temperature of the sun happens to be exactly 5778 kelvin, the same number as the Jewish year will be as soon as the sign occurs.  Like Tim Tebow would say, most people will say "coincidence", but I say "big God":


I don't mean this at all in a mean way, but some of these doubts sound reminiscent of Thomas in John 20:25, "unless I see the nail marks... I will not believe".  Anything can be proven or disproven with a little shifting of evidence and the right biases, but just stop for a moment and consider the specificity and incredible uniqueness of this sign.  There have been three separate inventories of every year over a 7,000+ year span and this is the only year this sign occurs.  Consider everything else going on at the same time as this sign: 70 prophetic years since Israel's rebirth, 50 years/Jubilee since Jerusalem recaptured, 120 years since the First Zionist Congress, 100 years since the Balfour Declaration, Jews allowed to return to Israel in 1923, Sanhedrin reconstituted, Temple Institute ready to build the Temple, Hebrew year 5777, the stage is set, the setting is right, and on and on and on.

In my opinion this is the clearest and most demonstrable prophetic sign since the rebirth of Israel in 1948, yet the usual eschatological talking heads are ignoring it or rejecting it out of hand.  Woe.  Woe.  Woe.

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39 comments :

  1. I examine this subject in detail at "The Rescue of the Bride" http://october-5-2017.com The Great Sign of the Woman appears on September 23, 2017. However, the important date is October 5, 2017. The Sixth Seal will be opened and The Red Dragon will appear on October 5, 2017. The rescued Bride will appear in the throne room of Yahuah (God) on October 5, 2017.

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    2. Movies take a break all the time to give important backstory. Rev 12 is explaining what led up to Israel hiding in the place God prepared. It's worth noting that ancient cultures were not nearly as concerned with strict chronological order as we are today. Backstory diversions weren't uncommon.

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    3. I think you have some interesting and important observations, but I have to disagree about the 6th Seal opening after Sept 23, 2017 star sign.

      If the Rev 12 star sign is the 'sign of the son of man' (which I think is a fairly reasonable assumption) then, per Matt 24:15-31:

      - shortened 'great tribulation' (has to start before the Rev 12 star sign)
      - then 'sun, moon darkened, stars fall, powers of heavens shaken' (6th Seal)
      - false Christ confirms the 7 year covenant/ Mosaic covenant
      - Rev 12 star sign, Sept 23, 2017
      - gathering of the elect by the messengers/ 144,000
      - false Christ removed
      - 'sun, moon darkened, stars fall, powers of heavens shaken' (Trumpets 1-4)

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  2. There was some talk earlier about the blacked-out area in infrared between the legs of Virgo that when it was first noticed was not censored on NASA's site, allowing us to see the what everyone else was censoring. It was suggested that this was the sign of the red dragon.

    I think the mysterious object could be a huge comet, still far from the sun but on an orbit that threatens a collision with Earth. Hiding the existence of such a comet to avoid panic would be entirely expected. Sleeping comets are dark-colored and hard to see in the visible spectrum but can be detected more easily in infrared because of blackbody radiation. Of course, when a comet comes closer to the sun and warms up, the comet develops a coma and a tail and becomes much easier to see. The red dragon comet, appearing close to the ecliptic, would be seen by everyone in the entire world, even in daylight if the comet is as bright as it would have to be.

    Comets are made of a fragile material and it is not rare for them to fragment when they pass close to the sun. This could explain the multiple bright spots in the infrared image. There could be seven major fragments and many smaller ones. The descriptions in the Revelation are consistent with a cometary impact, or more accurately multiple cometary impacts in a close succession like how Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit Jupiter in 1994. It is also possible that one impact will trigger an eruption of Campi Flegrei in Italy, a super volcano capable of a VEI 7 size eruption like Mount Tambora in 1815. Such an eruption would be expected to turn daylight into darkness in Rome. Campi Flegrei has been showing signs of increasing activity and is currently on yellow alert. An interesting detail is that Lake Avernus at Campi Flegrei has been considered a gateway to the underworld.

    Here is a picture showing how a comet could be seen to have multiple "heads":
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Comet_1861.jpg

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  4. I pray YHWH blesses you, Gary, thank you for your service, and the sorrows you bear. Glory to YHWH! We have loved Yeshua's appearing! Daniel

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    2. Thank you Daniel! Blessings to you both.

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  5. Yes, the interpretation of Rev 12 may be wrong. I've been wrong about all kinds of things. But - here is the thing. If there is even a chance that our time left is short, we should take that seriously and strive to make the most of it. If nothing happens we have lost nothing, and will not regret living faithfully. If something does happen then we are ready. But imagine the horror of looking back on a wasted chance. If one must be wrong, I would rather err on the side of being ready and alert than blowing it off. There is too much at stake.

    I don't know what September will bring. I'm still bothered that the sign misses the festival of trumpets. But no matter where you stand, this is not the time to be careless. Just look at North Korea, Russia, the Middle East - who can say what tomorrow will bring? The rapture is not the only thing that might happen in 2017 that could cut our time on Earth short.

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    1. The sign does appear on the Feast of Trumpets. Jewish days begin at Sunset. Scottie Clarke explains it here in this video:
      https://youtu.be/91F_EseiPkU

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    2. More on the timing of this year's Feast of Trumpets:

      This year is very interesting because with the sun in the shoulder area of Virgo(this is by design), the sighting of the crescent moon to start the Feast of Trumpet will be in the Body of Virgo. As in being pregnant. This new moon is known as "Yom HaKeseh".

      Yom Hakeseh means "the Day of Concealment", aka rapture! While we are still in the womb we are taken! Before the child is born.

      When the Trumpet is blown to start the Feast of trumpets, the moon is no longer new, it has been seen. This is one possible time for the rapture to occur.

      24 hours from the start of the Feast, the moon will have moved into the leg area of Virgo, day 1 of the Feast is over. In less than 24 hours the moon will be under her feet, well before day 2 ends at sunset. As the sun sets both the moon and Jupiter will be visible in the night sky. So the sign appears as the "Last Trump" is blown at sunset to bring the Feast to a close. Another possible time for the rapture to occur!

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  6. Gary - I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the articles you've written. You've shown yourself to "be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth" (2Tim 2:15). The logical arguments that you have been using are impeccable. And you've coupled that with humility, admitting where they might be holes. You mention that if you're wrong, you will be a laughingstock. That's not the case with me or probably most of the people who read your articles. I like what John Eldredge wrote in his book "Wild At Heart" -
    The world of posers is shaken by a real man. They’ll do whatever it takes to get you back in line. You must let your strength show up because the world doesn’t have a place for it. Fine. The world’s screwed up. Let people feel the weight of who you are and let them deal with it. As William Gurnall said, “It is the image of God reflected in you that so enrages hell; it is this at which the demons hurl their mightiest weapons.”

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    1. What an incredible compliment and encouragement. Thank you brother! I've been discouraged of late, and this really helped. Thanks again.

      Pressing on towards the goal.

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    2. I agree with Damian's encouragement. Flack will come and all the more when you are speaking truth. The world and the spiritual enemy hate it and therefore you. You are sheltered under God's wing, so fear not.

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    3. Just made this above post but it wouldn't let me give a name. Thanks, Grooble.

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  7. Stay the course! As always, great defense of the great sign, Gary.

    Nice addition about the brooch. Was that BrazenLaver who brought that up? Good find. Also, I remember that many others had noticed the similarity of the crown alignment and that of an ancient Egyptian crown.

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    1. I think Blood Red Moon mentioned that on another article.

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  8. The rulers and the elite of this Earth know what is about to happen...

    Rev.12:15-16 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    The lost, wicked rulers of this Earth have been preparing for decades for what is about to happen to this Earth. However, the "sheeple" are too in love with Sodom and Gomorrah to notice the "SIGNS" on God's Wall! They love this life and they will defend it even though the tentacles of the "beast" are all around them.

    Jeremiah the prophet told Jerusalem over and over again! Prepare for God's judgment! They did not believe! THEY GOT BURNED! Lot's wife was told not to look back! She did not believe. SHE GOT BURNED!

    2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    This world loves Babylon the Great! SHE IS GOING THE BE DEVOURED AND UTTERLY DESTROYED AND BURN!

    Hey guess what guys? We can explain God's word without error and we are going to see what the bibles says; SCOFFERS in the last days.

    2 Peter 3:3-5 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of...

    They are "Willingly ignorant". God bless them because only he can.

    P.S. We need to watch the land of Israel! God is working "his will" in Jerusalem almost every day my friends! The next three years are going to pivotal and they will be "huge". If you know what I mean and according if we are still around! Even so come Lord Jesus!

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  9. Btw, excellent article Gary! Keep up the good work my friend!

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  10. Terrific article, Gary. You've helped set out the course we should be on.

    "Some Christians argue that Jesus Himself still doesn't know. I think that line of thinking is patently unbiblical. Jesus had humbled Himself into the body of a man, with all its earthly limitations. Yet He was later raised from the dead, glorified, seated at the right hand of God, and restored to omnipresence."

    I'm so glad you brought this up, because so many people take a verse like that out of context and read into it that Jesus has no clue about these events NOW. Those who think Jesus still has no idea about the timing of end-time events need to go back and re-read the Upper Room Discourse...carefully.

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    1. One other thing...you may as well add Jan Markell to that list of obstinate naysayers. I forced myself to go back and listen to her interview with Billy Crone again (partly because I couldn't believe my ears the first time through), and I noticed my memory was a bit faulty. It was *Jan* who first made the accusation that we were practicing astrology, not Crone. He just jumped on her comment and ran with it. It wasn't that he said it and she remained silent. *She* fired the first shot. I am so disappointed in Jan Markell I could cry.

      I'm also glad you brought up the baby kick that nobody has wanted to talk about (I count it as 56 days, but won't quibble about it). You are absolutely right: it is all but physically impossible for Jupiter's retrograde to occur 100 percent within the imaginary boundaries of the "womb." Sometimes this temporary exit is obvious, but in the case of 2017 it's virtually unnoticeable--that's literally as good as it gets, period. And I *do* believe it is significant, because we don't serve a "close enough" God. I believe this is part of the woman's pain, but I won't be dogmatic about it.

      Just for fun, I took the entire "pregnancy" of Virgo and laid it against the Church Age to see where the baby kick would fit, historically. It's rough--probably too rough to make a big deal about, but the baby kick *roughly* corresponds to the period in history during which Jerusalem was under Egyptian control--one of the worst chapters in the city's history. Following the baby kick period, it came under the control of the Turks under Suleiman, who largely restored Jerusalem and brought relative stability.

      It's probably nothing, but it was an interesting history lesson.

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    2. I think people get too hung up on those imaginary lines on stellarium connecting the stars. The artistic interpretation of any of the characters overlaid on the basic shape of the direct lines obviously wouldn't go along point to point straight lines (Look at the Mazzaroth images, that is what John would have been thinking about when he was looking at the constellation). Last time I looked a woman's shape wasn't made of straight lines, even less so when she is pregnant. God didn't make the universe to conform 100% to stellarium, this is only an issue if you are looking for an excuse for it not to fit, not rationally considering and weighing up the evidence.

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  11. There really is no Revelation 12 sign – without the “Other Sign”

    3 Then another sign appeared in the sky: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky and knocked them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that it could devour her child when it was born.

    This is the biggest “hold up” for me ……..

    Yes, there is a lot of conjecture this sign of the dragon is Nibru / Planet X -- but should there appear a bit more about this second sign – as we draw closer to the date?

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    1. I agree it is a hold up, but at the same time there doesn't appear to be any other perfect Rev 12 alignment besides this year: http://www.unsealed.org/2017/05/the-celestial-c-section-defense-of.html

      That being said, there is an interesting thread about the sign of the dragon on our discussion board that begins to answer this question: http://unsealed.boards.net/thread/185/red-dragon-good-why

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  12. Gary, I do want you to look at all the scriptures surrounding Rev 12 in a new light: Do ALL of them fit the Body/The Church? I'd say no to that. It does, however fit the Remnant, the last saved Jews, the 144,000 collectively. Almost ALL of Revelation is about them: not the Church. This sign is a sign unto them, not us. I believe it's a marker, a loud final trumpet warning to the Jews, not the Body, that they better start understanding who Christ is. We already know WHO He is. They don't. As a matter of fact, only 50% of Israeli Jews even believe in God, according to latest polls. Mary NEVER suffered in her birth: Read Isaiah 66:7: no pains, until AFTER the birth: Who has heard of such a thing? Meaning it's so rare it never happens, except in a birth with Christ. You and Scott believe that the Woman, who is Israel, experience birth pains with the Church. I don't see that. What pains? In what ways? But there ARE several ways that Israel is pained with the birth of her disbelievers, even skeptics of the Lord. Again, scripture tells the Jews: look to the Heavens for signs. That's who the audience was in that verse, not the Church. And the last point is: you're making Rapture the main focal point of Revelation, and Rapture is barely even mentioned in the entire book. It's about bringing the Chosen back to the Marriage they originally had with God, when He granted them a divorce in Jeremiah 3;1. Yes, we're going to be Raptured first, but unfortunately Christians make themselves the focal point of Revelation, and that's just being proud, and not humble. We're NOT the focus of it. Just a piece in the puzzle. Amen.

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    1. I definitely don't think all of Rev 12 is about the Church, but I would say that Rev 12:5 is for many, many reasons.

      I don't see Isaiah 66 as a prophecy of Christ's first coming. The passage speaks of the earth giving birth to a nation, not an individual giving birth to an individual. The woman is figurative in Isaiah 66 - Zion. I believe it is speaking of the Church, but possibly also about the rebirth of Israel. Some prophecies have multiple fulfillments - it seems. In any case, no pains until after birth for Zion would indicate Zion gives birth before her Tribulation - the day of the LORD is frequently associated with labor pains - hence a Pre-trib birth and rapture.

      Also, Rev 12:17 indicates that the woman has other children besides the male child. I believe these would contextually be Jews and Gentiles coming to faith during the Trib.

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    2. Gary, Israel ALREADY gave birth to the Church back in Acts. I know y'all say it was the conception, but it was the full birth: hence the epistles to the CHURCHES which were the body of Christ; hence the notes by Christ in Revelation to the Church. It makes no sense to say in 2017 that the Church was born then instantly raptured. We've had nearly 1900 years of the Body of Christ. It grew from a few thousand to what it is today: 2.2 billion. How is that possibly a birth in the year 2017?

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    3. It does, however, make TOTAL sense to say: to fulfill all the old prophecies that Israel would come back to Christ: that the birth of the Faithful Jews would be signaled by a sign such as Revelation 12. It also marks the sealing of the 144,000 which will be witnesses to the New Birth of Faith of Israel. We had to remember, again, that Revelation is all about Israel gaining her faith, and the Faithful being preserved in Petra, which is also in Rev 12. See how it all fits?

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  13. Part 1: I believe that the sign of Revelation 12 is indeed an astronomical sign linking very many things together. It is part of the sealed up vision and prophecy that Gabriel told Daniel would be sealed up until the time of the End. We have discovered that God has marked the prophecy with a similar heavenly marker that confirms and marks the Genesis 3 prophecy (also the first given by God himself). When you look at the two alignments you will see why this is important - I have linked them below:

    http://i.imgur.com/2IZb0Hj.png - First Instance in 3915BC (-3914 in Stellarium) - Genesis 3 = Sealed up Prophecy

    http://i.imgur.com/oSUBpLa.png - Second Instance on September 23rd, 2017 - Revelation 12 = Sealed up Vision

    Given that both the prophecy and the vision are not only linked together by similar symbolism, but also have similar heavenly alignments, that only occur on these two dates we see another passage being fulfilled in the Word of God:

    Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    In addition, we now understand that God uses the universe around us to point out and mark his special days and we find a pattern for this when we consider Jesus's crucifixion. The completion of the fulfillment of this Feast Day was marked by a 3-hour long solar eclipse - caused by something else than the moon. When we consider the timing of the Revelation 12 sign, it matches the pattern used by God during Jesus's crucifixion to mark the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets in the same way that He did with Passover. The first Feast day of each of the two seasons are marked by a very unusual celestial sign.

    continued in next post...

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  14. Part 2: ...continued:

    More on the timing of the Revelation 12 sign - The fulfillment of this sign is positioned right in the transition of one day to the next or as we see in Genesis - the evening and the morning according to the way in which God distinguishes between the end of one day and the start of a next. We see then in Daniel 8:26 that Gabriel confirms the accuracy of the Revelation 12 sign's positioning in the following verse:

    Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

    Now about Jupiter exiting the womb 2 weeks before the fulfillment of the sign:

    This is clearly addressed in both the Genesis 3 prophecy and the Revelation 12 sign which we now understand to have a celestial application. When we understand that the seed of the woman and the seed of the dragon are represented by celestial bodies in the heavens it tells us that there will be a collission between Jupiter and a rogue planet somewhere in the two weeks leading up to the fulfillment of the Revelation 12 sign. God has even marked the area that will be affected on Jupiter by the dotted line drawn by the Shoemaker-Levy 9 comet when it impacted Jupiter! I believe this is what is known as the stone cut without hands that will hit the earth 3.5 years later and that will end Satan's rule through the wordly kingdoms and where God will then establish His own everlasting heavenly kingdom. This collision in heavens is what I believe the fearful signs in the heavens will be all about. It is the sign of the coming of the Son of man - the moment when the stone that is cut without hands is cut and sent on its way to earth.

    We should be careful to try to understand the Word of God by reading everything chronologically. This is not the way in which God designed His Word, in my humble opinion, and we should instead apply Isaiah 28:10 when approaching the Word of God. The word of God consists of puzzle pieces that are strewn throughout the Book that we have to look for and once we find them, we can assemble it and obtain the correct understanding, specifically focusing on avoiding contradictions with the rest of the Word of God.

    Once you begin to dig into the finer detail of the Revelation 12 sign and how it is connected to many other passages and prophecies in this amazing Book, it becomes really difficult to dismiss this as not being a very clear marker in the heavens, given to us by God to point out the Day and the Hour of our departure with Him to the place that He has been preparing for us for the past 2,000 years!!

    I have a number of videos in my channel in which I address many of your concerns and I plan to do one in which I will provide more detail on the Jupiter collision within the next month or so.

    Go to God's Roadmap to the End...

    I hope this helps.

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    1. Love your work Jaco. Good stuff!

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  15. Didn't know where to post this so: http://www.dailycrow.com/emmanuel-and-the-fullness-of-the-gentiles/#more-7200
    what do you think of the coincidences points made by the link article?

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    1. I love the Daily Crow. I read it religiously.

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  16. I totally agree with you Gary. I do have a question. Would the reason we do not know the day nor hour actually be true in the sense that as we are raptured Satan won't know the day or hour either and the secret or concealment is just that.....because Satan and his armies will try to anticipate our rapture and try to prevent it? I heard someone make reference to that once. There will be a battle between the heavenly hosts and Satan's bunch of idiot angels because at the time we are raptured they will be being kicked out of heaven? Just a thought. Thank you brother.....hope u a right about all this.....

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  17. There is one thing that bothers me in regards to the Rev 12 sign. By the time night falls, Virgo is below the horizon. John is describing a sign seen in the daylight hours, hence why she is clothed with the sun, which has both a spiritual and physical understanding. The only way that we can know this sign is happening is because of astronomy apps, like Stellarium. IF NASA are nothing more than a bunch of liars, how do we know we can trust Stellarium to be depicting the truth and not trying to deceive? (I am not saying NASA and Stellarium are connected, just trying to show if they lied, what might keep others from doing likewise.) At time 13, all of her is still above the horizon with the sunlight still in the sky, an hour later (14), the top 1/3 of her is below the horizon and another hour later (15) her bottom 1/3 is all that remains to be seen. Hour 16 you can't see her, she is completely below the horizon and it is now night.

    So, either we were never intended to see this sign OR God gave some man wisdom to create Stellarium so that another man, whom he filled with wisdom also, would be lead to search Stellarium for this sign OR we are being deceived.

    God had given wisdom to men in the past to do the work required for the tabernacle as seen in Exodus 31:1-11: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I HAVE FILLED HIM WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship. And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I HAVE PUT WISDOM, that they may make all that I have commanded thee; The tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is thereupon, and all the furniture of the tabernacle, And the table and his furniture, and the pure candlestick with all his furniture, and the altar of incense, And the altar of burnt offering with all his furniture, and the laver and his foot, And the cloths of service, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office, And the anointing oil, and sweet incense for the holy place: according to all that I have commanded thee shall they do.

    What are your thoughts?

    Elle

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  18. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  19. Hello, and I look forward to seeing you all on September 24th!

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