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Conservative Scholars Agree: The Male Child Is The Church



A number of prophecy teachers including Joel Richardson and Jack Hibbs have dismissed the upcoming Revelation 12 Sign by suggesting it isn't unique and that conservative evangelical scholars have taught that the male child of Revelation 12:5 is not the Church.  We have already demonstrated that they are mistaken about the Sign's uniqueness (it is completely unique) and Revelation 12 Daily has uncovered numerous examples of conservative scholars who taught that the male child is the Church.  As a matter of fact, these prominent examples are so numerous one must wonder if it would be more accurate to say that there was widespread agreement among conservative evangelical scholars in the 16th through 19th centuries that the male child is in fact the Church.

The first two arguments Jack Hibbs presents to debunk the Revelation 12 Sign are as follows:

First of all, every conservative theologian that's worth reading does not interpret Revelation chapter twelve, the woman and the stars and all, as this young man [Steve Cioccolanti] has just stated.  It refers to the nation of Israel.  It's a eschatological, parenthetical insert.  It's an announcement that the nation of Israel will bring forth the man-child, the Messiah.  The Messiah came from Israel.  The twelve stars representing the twelve tribes.  This is longtime-held conservative, orthodox eschatology of the book of Revelation.  Number two: It's Revelation chapter twelve.  It's very clear that this is during the Tribulation period, Jan, and this young man says it's going to happen soon...

For starters, having seen Brad's research, I'm concerned that Hibbs is being disingenuous here.  He makes a bold statement that has now been shown to be incorrect.  Why is a man of God making such a patently false statement?  Could he not have at least said "I think" or "I bet" that "every conservative theologian... does not interpret Revelation chapter twelve [this way]"?  No, he stated something as cold, hard truth that is anything but.

Secondly, it seems a little (or a lot) convoluted to state that Revelation 12:5 is a "parenthetical insert" about the birth and ascension of Christ, but then turn around and take issue with Cioccolanti because Revelation 12 is supposedly only about the Tribulation.  That is completely illogical.  We all agree the passage deals with the Tribulation, but it's unfair to say it can't be parenthetical for us (those teaching the man-child is Christ and the Church), but it can be parenthetical for you (Hibbs' belief that the man-child is only Christ and not His Body).  That's hypocrisy.  What we can determine from this debate is that there is just about universal agreement on all sides that Revelation 12:5 is parenthetical.  The question is: is it speaking of Christ or the Church or both?

Going back to the initial claim, I want to challenge Pastor Hibbs.  Tell us which of the following men of God are not conservative theologians worth reading:


Theodore Beza


Born in France in 1519, Beza was one of the earliest and most prominent theologians in the Protestant Reformation.  He lived most of his life in Switzerland.  A student of John Calvin, he went on to help author the Geneva Study Bible, the very first mass-produced, publicly-available study Bible.  This was the most popular English translation until the King James Version came along in the following century.  The notes on Revelation 12:5 state the following about the man-child:

That is Christ the head of the Church joined with his Church (the beginning root and foundation of which is the same Christ) endued with kingly power and taken up into heaven out of the jaws of Satan (who as a serpent did bite him on the cross) that sitting on the heavenly throne, he might reign over all.

Considering the Geneva Study Bible was authored with the help of John Calvin and John Knox, one might wonder if they also shared or at least entertained Beza's view.


Hanserd Knollys


One of the earliest Baptist theologians, Knollys was born in England in 1599.  He served first as a bishop and later as a Baptist minister and is known for numerous scholarly works.  In Hanserd Knollys' Commentary on Revelation he writes of the man-child:

The man child brought forth was Christ, and his saints, the spiritual seed of this mystical woman, the church of the firstborn written in heaven, { Hebrews 12:22-23} the Jerusalem, that is above, which is the mother of us all. { Galatians 4:26} This child was prophesied of. { Psalm 2:6-10} And also her spiritual seed, the saints. { Revelation 12:16-17} Christ and his saints shall have the dominion over the nations, Daniel 7:27-28 and { Revelation 11:15}.


Matthew Poole


An English Nonconformist Reformer and theologian, Matthew Poole was born in 1624 and died in 1679.  He has a number of works and commentaries to his name.  In his Latin commentary he expresses deep skepticism towards the theory that the man-child is only Christ or Constantine and entertains the possibility the child is in fact the Church:

By this man-child some understand Constantine the Great; others understand Christ mystical, or many children brought forth unto God. As the Jews multiplied, do Pharaoh what he could to destroy them, so the church increased, notwithstanding all the malice and rage of her enemies. Interpreters accordingly are divided concerning the person or persons here spoken of, that should

'Rule all nations with a rod of iron.' It was prophesied of Christ, Psalm 2:9, that he should break the nations with a rod of iron. It is applied to the servants of Christ, who overcome, and keep Christ’s words to the end, Revelation 2:27. So as it is here applicable to believers, whom the church should bring forth, who shall judge the world, as the apostle tells us; and I had rather thus interpret it, than concerning Constantine the Great.

'And her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne': these words are something hard to be interpreted. To interpret it of Christ’s being taken up into heaven, is to turn a mysterious prophecy into a plain relation, or history of things past. To interpret it concerning Constantine the Great, seemeth very hard; for how was he, more than any other Christians, caught up unto God, and to his throne?


Matthew Henry


One of the most highly regarded Protestant theologians in history.  He wrote one of the most exhaustive biblical commentaries ever produced.  His massive six-volume work, which was published in 1706, had this to say about the man-child:

The unsuccessfulness of these attempts against the church; for, 1. She was safely delivered of a man-child (v. 5), by which some understand Christ, others Constantine, but others, with greater propriety, a race of true believers, strong and united, resembling Christ, and designed, under him, to rule the nations with a rod of iron; that is, to judge the world by their doctrine and lives now, and as assessors with Christ at the great day. Care was taken of this child: it was caught up to God, and to his throne; that is, taken into his special, powerful, and immediate protection. The Christian religion has been from its infancy the special care of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. 3. Care was taken of the mother as well as of the child.

Take careful note of Henry's thoughts.  He called the man-child = Church theory of "greater propriety".  Propriety - the state or quality of conforming to conventionally accepted standards of behavior or morals.  This was well over a century before Darby supposedly invented the pre-trib rapture doctrine.  Whoever Henry's sources were, some of them must have thought likewise.


John Wesley


No biography is needed for this cleric from the 1700s.  He just happened to be the founder of Methodism, but no big deal y'all.  Here is what Wesley said about the man-child:

And she brought forth a man child - Even Christ, considered not in his person, but in his kingdom. In the ninth age, many nations with their princes were added to the Christian church. Who was to rule all nations - When his time is come. And her child - Which was already in heaven, as were the woman and the dragon. Was caught up to God - Taken utterly out of his reach.


John Nelson Darby


The founder of modern dispensationalism and futurism, he is perhaps the single most influential evangelical theologian aside from Luther, Melancthon, Calvin, and Christ and the Apostles themselves.  Though he has been falsely accused of inventing the pre-trib rapture doctrine, he did in fact popularize it in his time.  He saw Revelation 12:5 as key textual evidence of a pre-trib rapture:

If the mighty man, the mystic man, the man-child of Revelation xii. is to act [in judging the world with a rod of iron], He must first be complete (of course He is so, essentially so, in Himself, but as Head over all things to the Church which is His body). The head and the body must be united before He can act as having this title before the world; because the mystic man as a whole cannot take it until the Church is taken up to Him. For not until then—until the Church, the body, is united to the Head, Christ, in heaven—is the mystic man in that sense complete; and therefore, the Church must be taken up before Christ can come in judgment...

In the chapter we have read, you have first Christ Himself and the church, figured in the man-child; and then in the woman who flees from persecution for 1260 days you have the Jewish remnant, those who are spared in the time of judgment but are not yet brought into glory...

I have no doubt that the “man child” spoken of in the chapter that we have been reading includes the church as well as Christ. But it is Christ that is principally meant, for the church would be nothing without Christ; it would be a body without a head. It is Christ who has been caught up; but the church is included, for whenever He begins to act publicly, even as regards Satan being cast down, He must have His body, His bride, with Him; He must have His brethren, His joint-heirs.


William Kelly


Following on the heels of Darby was the Irish theologian William Kelly who wrote in 1870:

On this principle then I cannot but consider that the rapture of the man-child to God and His throne involves the rapture of the church in itself. The explanation why it is thus introduced here depends on the truth that Christ and the church are one, and have a common destiny. Inasmuch as He went up to heaven, so also the church is to be caught up.


G.H. Pember


George Hawkins Pember was an Englishman and prolific Christian writer and scholar in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  In his 1876 book Earth's Earliest Ages, Pember not only espoused the theory that the male child is the Body of Christ, but also that the Nephilim would return after the rapture of the Church (source):

But of far more intense interest to those who love the Lord Jesus, and long for His appearing, is that which is signified as taking place just previously to the expulsion of the Devil and his angels from heaven (Rev. xii. 1-5). For without going into details, which we have considered elsewhere, we may mention our conclusion that the birth and rapture of the man child refer to the completion of the mystic Christ — of which the personal Christ is the Head and His Church the body — as manifested by the sudden translation of all waiting saints, whether dead or alive, to meet their Lord in the air.

It thus appears that this long-expected event will precede Satan’s banishment from heaven, and, therefore, also it’s results…and the revelation of the Man of Sin. Like Enoch, the Church of Christ will be called away before earth is for a time abandoned to the Nephilim, before the fearful woes of the end.


Richard Chester


Anglican Rector of Midleton and Canon of Cloyne, Chester wrote in his expansive 1882 work Old Testament Light on New Testament Prophecy:

Now if the male Man-child of Rev. xii. is to be regarded as solely representing the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens, as some interpreters affirm; or as representing the visible Christian Church exalted into political power, as taught by others, it were not easy to establish any parallelism, or any correspondence whatsoever between Zech. iii. and Rev. xii. But if the Man-child represents, as is the belief of many students of prophecy, the entire body of “the dead in Christ” raised, and the living in Christ who shall be changed, and both together caught up to meet Him in the air—or if, as I have suggested in the article above referred to—he is to be rather regarded as a portion of the Jewish people—of 'the remnant according to the election of grace' incorporated by conversion to Christ into the Church of this dispensation—and thus 'brought forth'—'born again,'—and then, 'caught up to God and to His throne,' in the rapture of the risen and living saints of 1 Thess. iv.—then, in either of these cases, I submit that this vision of Zechariah iii. corresponds most accurately.


Charles Stanley


English preacher and evangelist, Charles Stanley, was one of the first to popularize the use of Gospel tracts in evangelism.  Stanley roamed England and Scotland evangelizing and starting revivals.  He was the author of numerous books, tracts, and writings.  In The Great Tribulation or the Time of the End he wrote:

Here, as the man child He is revealed as the mystic Christ; the unmeasured interval completed. 'And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God and His throne' (Rev. 12:5). Now the church is associated with Christ in this, as it is written in Revelation 2:26. 'And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end; to him will I give power over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron.' And when Christ comes to exercise this judgment, the church comes with Him (Rev. 19:14-15). So that the full ascension of the man child is complete, when the church, His body, is caught up to be with Him where He is: and to come with Him when He comes.


Edward Dennett


A faithful scholar in the Anglican communion, he later became a Baptist minister and scholar.  In his Revelation commentary The Visions of John on Patmos, Dennett wrote:

His expulsion from heaven is celebrated by a loud voice, which John heard, 'saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night' (vs. 10). This loud voice in heaven explains two things; first, that the expulsion of Satan and his angels from heaven was connected with, and preliminary to, the establishment of Christ’s kingdom on earth, such being the import, we apprehend, of the words, 'Now is come,' (vs. 10) etc.; and secondly, it gives the justification of the interpretation that the church is regarded as caught up together with the Manchild; for the voice speaks of our brethren whom Satan had accused night and day before God.


Walter Thomas Prideaux Wolston


Another English evangelist, Walter Wolston was known for a dramatic conversion and an utter determination to preach the Gospel of Grace.  He was a surgeon and also the author of numerous Christian booklets.  He was also the editor of the famous The Gospel Messenger magazine for some 45 years.  Of Revelation 12:5 he wrote:

A little careful perusal of the Scripture will show that the one hundred and forty-four thousand are an earthly company, and not a heavenly company at all. The 'man-child' of Revelation 12 will have been 'caught up unto God, and to His throne,' before the scenes of chapter 14 are enacted. But who is the man-child? Christ? Yes, but not Christ only. Those that are Christ’s, I take it, are included in the expression. The man-child is going 'to rule all nations with a rod of iron'; and in Revelation 2:26-27, we find the Lord promising this position to the overcomer in Thyatira. Hence, not only is it Christ, but those that belong to Christ, and who, like Himself, have been taken up to heaven.


Henry Allen "Harry" Ironside


Harry Ironside, popularly called the "Archbishop of Fundamentalism", was a Canadian theologian born in 1876 who later moved to the United States and became one of the most influential conservative dispensationalists of all time and the author of more than 100 books.  In one of his famous lectures he explicitly defined the male child as the Church:

I have read or carefully examined several hundred books purporting to expound the Revelation. I have learned to look upon this twelfth chapter as the crucial test in regard to the correct prophetic outline. If the interpreters are wrong as to the woman and the man-child, it necessarily follows that they will be wrong as to many things connected with them...

If we allow Scripture itself to answer, we find there is a person and a company of people answering to this description. In the 2d Psalm Jehovah says to Messiah, 'Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten Thee. Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the nations for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel' (vers. 7–9). This, clearly enough, is our Lord Jesus Christ, who is soon to reign over all the earth, and undoubtedly He is primarily the Man-child who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron, and the special object of Satan’s malignity. But we have already seen, in Rev. 2:26–28, that when He reigns He will not reign alone. . . . Is there then any incongruity in understanding the man-child to represent both Christ Jesus our Lord and His church? Surely not, for He is the Head of the body, the church, which is the fullness, or completion of Himself, so that the title, 'The Church' is applied to both head and body viewed as one in 1 Cor. 12:12. . . . We may then, on the authority of Scripture itself, safely affirm that the man-child represents the one New Man who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron—Christ, the Head, and the church, His body. If this be so, then it is impossible that the woman should symbolize the church...

We have seen that the man-child symbolizes both Head and body—the complete Christ. Therefore, as in other prophecies, the entire present dispensation is passed over in silence, and the church is represented in its Head, caught up with Christ. For immediately after this, Satan, again acting through the Roman Empire which is to be revived in the last days, turns upon the woman Israel and seeks to vent his wrath and indignation against her.


William Biederwolf


This famous Presbyterian evangelist and scholar wrote more than 30 books including a prophetic commentary called The Millennium Bible in which he wrote of Revelation 12:5:

Pettingill, Mackintosh and a few others have a curious idea here. They think the 'catching up' does not refer to the historical, bodily ascension of Christ from the Mount of Olives, but to His spiritual body, believers who are to be caught up at the coming rapture, that the man-child therefore is still in progress of birth, the Church not being fully formed as yet...


William L. Pettingill


Dr. Pettingill authored 21 books and co-founded the Philadelphia College of the Bible with C.I. Scofield.  In 1923 (interesting date there) he wrote the following in God's Prophecies For Plain People:

Some of the language in this paragraph reminds us at once of the Second Psalm, where it is said of the Son of GOD:

'I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel' (Psalm 2:7-9).

The person in the Psalm is also seen in Revelation 12:5, coming forth out of Israel, 'a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.'

As He comes out of Heaven at the head of His armies, He brings with Him His co-rulers, in fulfillment of the promise of Revelation 2:26, 27:

'And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.'


Chuck Missler


A name most all of us are familiar with, Chuck Missler is one of the most famous prophecy scholars in modern times.  Founder of Koinonia House, ex-CEO of Western Digital, and a former teacher at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (the "home church" of the Calvary Chapel movement). Missler has authored numerous books and hosted numerous television shows.  It's ironic that prominent shepherds in the Calvary Chapel movement are unaware of what one of their primary theologians has taught.  Missler not only entertained the possibility that the man-child is the Church, but also the astrological significance of the descriptions in Revelation 12.

For many, many years as I read verse five I recognized of course that the woman is Israel... the man-child is who?  Jesus Christ.  And her child was caught up unto God and to his throne.  And I just took for granted that was an allusion to what?  The ascension, right?  It was G.H. Pember I believe, back probably in 1914, he was the first that I encountered at least, that saw this as possibly alluding to something else.  Not the ascension, but the rapture.  Her child, the Body of Christ, was caught up to God and his throne.  That could be an allusion to the ascension, no problem.  It also might be an allusion to the Body of Christ caught up in the rapture because the word 'caught up' there in the Greek is guess what?  Harpazo.  Snatched.  The same word that occurs in First Thessalonians chapter four.


This list is by no means exhaustive as I found a number of other conservative evangelical scholars who taught that the man-child is the Church, including Barton Johnson, Arthur Bloomfield, David Wilkerson, Thomas Blackburn Baines, Charles Henry Mackintosh, Robert Jamieson, Andrew Robert Fausset, and David Brown, the latter three being the authors of the world famous Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary (source), which along with Matthew Henry's commentary, are widely used in online Bible study tools.  Add in the more recent Dr. Michael Svigel, and that brings just a cursory count to 25 prominent theologians.


So my question and challenge to these pastors and naysayers within the Church is why are you disparaging God's "Great Sign"?  A fair rebuttal has yet to be offered and this alignment has withstood continual scrutiny for over three years now.  It really is unique, the male child really is the Church, numerous "conservative theologians" really do support this particular interpretation of the male child, and the alignment takes place in just three weeks.  Hear me clearly: I'm not saying the rapture will occur on September 23rd, but I fervently believe it is a sign that we are now exceptionally close.  This might be the exit sign.

I can understand the pastoral concerns about sensationalism and "date setting", but do you really want to ignore what might be a very clear sign from God that the Church is about to enter the heavenly Promised Land?  This sign doesn't exist in a vacuum, by the way (see here, here, here, and here).  Disparaging God's Great Sign seems like a far more frightening thing then at least having an open mind to it.  How many in your flocks are ignoring the significance of this because you are?

Frightening.  Truly frightening.  Consider the bad report from those spies who spied out the Promised Land and God's response to their unbelief (Numbers 13:30-14:12):

But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, 'Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.'  Then the men who had gone up with him said, 'We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are.' So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, 'The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height.  And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.'

Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night.  And all the people of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron.  The whole congregation said to them, 'Would that we had died in the land of Egypt!  Or would that we had died in this wilderness!  Why is the Lord bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword?  Our wives and our little ones will become a prey. Would it not be better for us to go back to Egypt?'  And they said to one another, 'Let us choose a leader and go back to Egypt.'

Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the people of Israel.  And Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, who were among those who had spied out the land, tore their clothes and said to all the congregation of the people of Israel, 'The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is an exceedingly good land.  If the Lord delights in us, he will bring us into this land and give it to us, a land that flows with milk and honey.  Only do not rebel against the Lord.  And do not fear the people of the land, for they are bread for us.  Their protection is removed from them, and the Lord is with us; do not fear them.'  Then all the congregation said to stone them with stones. But the glory of the Lord appeared at the tent of meeting to all the people of Israel.

And the Lord said to Moses, 'How long will this people despise me?  And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?  I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.'

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71 comments :

  1. Amen!!! Great article, thank you!

    Bro. Gary, how do you feel about the possible rapture being only 3 weeks away when so man are still sleeping? I am feeling very unsettled about this--would Yahweh rapture a sleeping church? Or do you think some very dramatic things may happen in the days ahead to help awaken her? Comments appreciated! God bless!

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    1. I'm really not sure, but I'll say this: we should expect this because the rapture will come like a thief on most of the world and even perhaps a large part or most of the Church (1 Thess. 5:3, Rev. 3:3).

      But for those watching, we will see the Day approaching (Heb. 10:25) and it will not come like a thief (Rev. 3:3).

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    2. Paul even alludes to a part of the body that remains asleep and unaware at the coming of Christ in 1 Thess. 5:10, "...whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him." The Greek word for "asleep" in 5:10 is not the same as the "asleep" in 1 Thess. 4:13. They are two different terms and two different contexts.

      In chapter 4 the apostle is comforting believers that their dead loved ones will be raised first at the Rapture. In chapter 5 he shifts gears to discuss how the thief-like return of Christ would catch both the world and sleeping believers off-guard, but not those who are alert and awake.

      Check it out for yourself! Look at the two different Greek terms used and examine the surrounding contexts. Some of our brothers and sisters will remain indifferent and unaware of Christ's coming; nevertheless, they are in for a rude awakening!

      Blessings, dear Annabelle!

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    3. Wow, thank you so much! I will definitely look into this! Our God sure is awesome, and I'm so glad His appearing does not depend on us in the Body all being awake (phew!). Many blessings!!

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  2. Scary ending. I see no harm in being ready and watching always. Better to be ready and mistaken than unprepared and mistaken.

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    1. Very sobering indeed! Excellent Article Gary! Though I think most pastors have made up their mind on the sign. Either for or against. Lines are being drawn.

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  3. For me the Revelation12 sign is so obvious. It is hard for me to understand why so many want to debunk it or say "nothing to see here...move along". For me God is speaking/shouting to His children/church.

    I have also noticed the comments of those opposed to the beliefs established by the authors on this web page are mean, hateful, condesending, (use your favorite adjective here). Do they have the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life? Are they legalists or lawless? Why would any brother or sister in Christ who love God and their neighbor as themselves want to take away the promise of our "Blessed Hope"? They wouldn't!

    I am 63 years of age and life has taught me people often do what they do to receive an expected reward. Whatever their reward might be...In my attempt to understand and place this all in perspective I have prayed for discernment, wisdom, and knowledge. I want to know how I am to react as a believer...During my times of study and prayer over the past 2 months I have been led to the following scriptures. I pray it gives understanding and direction to all believers as we minister the gospel to those That are lost. Turning our eyes to the skies ever watching for our Blessed Hope.
    2 Timothy 3:1-17
    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
    7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
    9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
    10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
    11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
    12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    With the Love of Jesus...Your sister in Christ, Karen

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    1. Sister Karen,
      I reply only to ad the AMEN!

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    2. Amen, my sister Karen!

      I have been asking myself these questions and more. "For who is the sign set in the heavens?"

      Given the nature of the sign (hidden in daylight in the skies over Jerusalem requiring technology and faithful discernment to see) it suggests to me that the sign is for those who love and seek the LORD with all their heart. That as a sign, we humble ourselves before God and pray His Holy Spirit to guide us, each in our own way, to act and love accordingly as Ambassadors of the Sovereign God of all creation.

      The Lord Himself has given us our charge:

      34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." 35 "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:34-35 NKJV)


      ...there is no greater love than this. LOVE.

      It is proper for us to inquire of these things. To search the mysteries and depths of prophecy and scripture.

      "It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out." (Proverbs 25:2 ESV)

      A passing asteroid makes great headlines in the news. The potential and imminent fulfilment of Biblical prophecy gets barely a mention and [sadly] is it any wonder? We gathered as a nation to marvel at the solar eclipse, yet the majority miss the poetry in the skies bidding us to come and humble ourselves before the LORD our God.

      As the scriptures say:

      19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:19-25 ESV)

      Hold fast to His promises, love like there's no tomorrow and keep the faith.

      Grace and peace to you,


      Pastor Rich

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    3. I owe everyone an apology!

      Forgive me as my attention is very divided and I recklessly posted to this page without proper consideration. That which was in my heart (in my post above) didn't translate well to text on the page. It occurred to me that my message may be taken in the wrong light. All apologies if this is the case!

      My earlier posting may have suggested that lifelong followers of Christ didn't love Him because they may have not understood the sign. Nothing could be further from the truth and I apologize if I offended anyone. I myself had no knowledge of the coming advent of the sign on 9/23/17 until late last year. One question I may ask is why?

      Why didn't I know about it and why do I now know about it? I think the obvious answer is that the LORD opened my eyes to it in a time that was right for me according to His will. If this is the case, and I believe it is, then it is by God's will that I would see it. Would not the converse be true as well? That the sign may be hidden to some according to His will?

      I would take that as a given.

      I should have said that the LORD reveals Himself in many different ways and that some of us have been charged with being Watchers. The LORD's return is something we should all anticipate and look forward to, but I tend to wonder if He has reserved the heart for digging these treasures for but a few of His children.

      Points for me to ponder and pose in prayer.

      Grace and peace to you!


      Pastor Rich

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    4. Pastor Rich...I took no offense the first time I read your post. I read it several times after reading your apology and still fail to see anything but truth from the Word of God given in Love by you. The delivery of a message from one who is called to be a pastor.

      With the Love of Jesus...Your sister in Christ,
      Karen

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  4. Tory Brewer put his neck on the chopping board when he emphatically said the rapture will happen on the 23rd September. This was on the Rev12 Daily Blogspot but I just wanted to remind people and hopefully get people to repost. Thanks.

    http://opendoorexperience.com/media/player/media/the-sign-of-jonah/video/

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  5. Annabel, and Gary and others, People seem to think only a select few of the church are going to be raptured. There should be no confusion. The only way we get to be raptured is because we are clothed with Christ's righteousness, not our own. The whole church will be raptured, the true church that is. They are those who have put their faith in Christ's finished work on the cross, trusting in His perfectness, not ours. Thessalonians says we are to encourage one another with that hope. The only way any of us are His is through His grace, through faith, a gift! Those who are sleeping as to the signs of the times might lose out on some reward for not being faithful, but even those who love Jesus and surrendered to Him, but don't recognize the signs of the time will still get raptured to heaven! I like the analogy someone put on one of these comments- like a parent taking a sleeping child quickly out of danger who had failed to watch for them. God is faithful, even when we are not. However, the unbelieving, and those who have not submitted to Christ's lordship or don't believe in His finished work on the cross, they will not go! They might think they're part of the church, but the fruit is not there. We all need to examine ourselves to see if we really are in the faith!

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    1. Charissa,
      You are so right. It is God who sees our hearts. I've often said that the person I will be most supersized to see in Heaven is me.
      There are several more scriptures That I could add here, but I think one is enough to make the point.
      2Ch_6:30  Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:)

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    2. Charissa,

      Please explain what you mean by "submit to His Lordship", because most people seem to think it involves works, especially those of the law, which no one can do.

      Also. ALL those who have put their faith in Christ, even if they are currently yielded to sin (which is what Paul means by "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5) will be rapture. Our salvation is by Christ's work, not ours; we only recieve the gift.

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    3. 4th point of Contact, by lordship I quote Romans 10:9 "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.". Lordship is submitting your life to Christ being king, not yourself, or others. After submitting, works out of love and obedience follow, called fruit. This only happens when we're connected to our life vine, Jesus. See John 15. Also, John 6:29b says, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.". Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us it is by grace you are saved through faith. We don't know people's hearts, but God does. Those who are His will listen to His voice. As His children, we still at times disobey, but that does not change the fact of our adoption as His kids. We just get disciplined to get back on the right track. Works without faith are like filthy rags.
      One more comment though too for all of us to remember is James 5:9-11. If you're tempted to complain against a brother or sister, don't! Keep your eyes on Christ and show grace to everyone. God's love to you all in Christ Jesus! Charissa

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    4. 4th point of Contact, by lordship I quote Romans 10:9 "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.". Lordship is submitting your life to Christ being king, not yourself, or others. After submitting, works out of love and obedience follow, called fruit. This only happens when we're connected to our life vine, Jesus. See John 15. Also, John 6:29b says, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.". Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us it is by grace you are saved through faith. We don't know people's hearts, but God does. Those who are His will listen to His voice. As His children, we still at times disobey, but that does not change the fact of our adoption as His kids. We just get disciplined to get back on the right track. Works without faith are like filthy rags.
      One more comment though too for all of us to remember is James 5:9-11. If you're tempted to complain against a brother or sister, don't! Keep your eyes on Christ and show grace to everyone. God's love to you all in Christ Jesus! Charissa

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    5. Maranatha, I'm not complaining I'm identifying and dealing with a serious doctrinal issue, that of the mixing of works and grace, which the Bible says are mutually exclusive (Romans 11:6).

      Paul in Romans 10:9 is NOT stating that your works earn you salvation after-the-fact, which you can then judge others by. He's stating, as he always does, that Jesus is LORD, i.e., YHWH, and the only source of eternal life, which is by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 Romans 4:2-8).

      You cannot judge someone's salvation by their works, when you say that works aren't required in the first place. Especially when clear verses like Romans 4:5-8 and 1 Cor. 3:15 teach that one is saved by faith even without ANY works whatsoever.

      "Works without faith are like filthy rags." is a misquote - Isaiah 64:6 says ALL our works are as filthy rags.

      John 15 isn't about salvation. It's said to the 11 believing Apostles, and it is regarding their role in ministry - verse 11 provides the context.

      Can Mormons do good works? Can JWs? Can atheists? Yes - but none of these trust Christ ALONE for salvation. They all think their works, which they label "works of faith" prove they are worthy of heaven, except they don't.

      Jesus taught adamantly against this. Remember the parable of Luke 18:9-14:

      9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

      What you are teaching is called Lordship Salvation, which says that the Pharisee was the one that wa saved and the Tax Collector was just looking for "cheap grace:, and is NOT the Gospel.

      I highly recommend you check out Ralph Yankee Arnold's teaching on this subject:
      https://youtu.be/Cz1jcvxnceA



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    6. 4th point of contact, no, I'm just not communicating clearly. I completely agree with you. I was typing on my phone late at night and should have answered from my computer at a more sane hour. It is only by faith. I was just saying that, like in James, faith without works is dead. God determines the heart though. Im not judging people's heart, but we are supposed to recognize the fruit of the Spirit in someone's life. And works done in the power of the Holy Spirit are not rags, or menstral cloths. They will be rewarded, except that we'll give those crowns back to Jesus because it was all Him in us anyway, so He gets the credit. Let me be clear. Salvation is only through believing in Christ and what He did, nothing we've done. Period. God knows who truly believes this. However, we are told not to even eat with someone who says they are a believer, but instead are living rebellious lives in greed and lust, and other things. Their actions don't mean they're not a believer. But A thorn tree won't produce peaches, and a peach tree doesnt produce thorns. We are to judge angels one day, and need to be able to have discerment in these things. But our hearts in discerning need to come grom humility, realizing that we too need Jesus just as badly. Salvation is through faith, but we still all need to be continuslly sanctified after that so that we can be bright lights and ambassadors for our Lord. We all have this sin ridden body that I was reading in 2 Corinthians 5, will be renewed one day to be incorruptible, without the capacity to sin. That is our hope. I'm a sinner like everyone else, in need of God's grace and power daily. God tests our belief, our faith. He is the one who completes it. Your Scripture exam of the two men standing before God, one comparing himself with the other, and do on is one ofy favorite! God is close to the broken hearted, those who realize how much they need a Savior. He is far from the prideful. Praise the Lord for His Mercy, on all of us sinners!

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    7. And Gary, I loved your article on the seven churches and commented so when you first wrote it. Awesome and encouraging and right on. The others are great too. Blessings to you and thank you for allowing God to use you in this way.

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    8. 4th point of contact, I'm so sorry, I did not mean that complaining comment for you! That was meant to be a general comment as I've see some of that sprinkled throughout some of the comments on these articles and other places. Please forgive me for making you feel I was singling you out. I should have placed that elsewhere. Blessings to you!

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    9. Gotcha. The most important thing we must fight for is the clarity of the Gospel. I tend to go into that mode when I see people using terms that are common with the muddy non-gospel of Lordship Salvation. I'm not judging your salvation, but promoting the clear Gospel. We are saved by trusting the blood of Jesus. Nothing else.

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  6. Great article, thank you. I agree. Their collective behavior is a real head-scratcher. They're either hatefully dismissing it, or completely silent about it. All these years I had expected that the big names that have taught Pre-Trib Rapture would be the first ones to be hootin' & hollerin' at a sign such as this. Really, really strange. I'm actually a little unsettled by their reactions, and not sure how I should interpret it.

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  7. I'm not ashamed to say that I was having a little trouble buying into all this. I've spent the last 10 days or so pouring over all the evidence, at numerous sites, and have found no credible refutation! I've always been "taught" we can't know the day or hour... I discovered a couple of years back that this phrase in all likelihood references a curious and enlightening Jewish idiom. That, coupled with something that has always troubled me, namely, how God waited seven days before shutting Noah in (clearly Noah, et al, KNEW the flood was coming. KNEW an ark was prepared, and it stood to reason, therefore, that we would know, within a "week" (a short, reasonable, period of time, when the rapture would come), making the argument appear iron-clad.

    I've still found no credible refutation... I want to believe this... I'm choosing to believe this. I just can't understand why pastors everywhere aren't embracing this as well. You've set no date for the rapture, yet still pastors appear skittish. Yet I've found my attitude toward God is changing, and that can't be at all bad. I love Him all the more for His incomparable simplicity... so simple in fact that many so-called wise and learned men are stumbling their traditions!

    And if nothing happens by, say, September 30, I'll not feel let down. He IS Coming... It's just a matter of time, a time very soon. All the "Other" prophesies are fulfilled to the letter. Christians, it would seem, are too afraid of anything connected to the rapture. They shouldn't be.

    "Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Maranatha! Amen.

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    1. Amen....I think you summed up most of our frustrations with this. It seems so obvious, and now with all the evidence, it is becoming willfully neglect to say this alignment is nothing.

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    2. In the spirit of Hebrews 13:17 and 1 Peter 5:1-4, I think the more honest of the big names are trying to avoid the fallout were they to get behind it and it doesn't happen. I know of a church that suffered a lot of pain in 1975 because the pastor predicted the rapture in September of that year. While I can't second guess their motives as they honestly try to shepherd the flock, I do pray (2 Tim 1:7) the spirit of power, love and self-discipline overcomes their spirit of fear. As for others who are trying to protect their gravy train (books, DVDs, buildings, programs, etc.), they will give account for where they placed their treasure. The opposition in the church tells me there is something real behind this and Satan is trying hard to distract us and cheat us out of our reward. Revelation 3:11, "Behold I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

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  8. Would it have been possible to post where these quotes are found; page or sermon number? I'm seeing some backlash in groups that these quotes cannot be attributed.

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    1. I've now put direct links in to almost every person listed above, so your friends can see the quotes directly. Just a simple Google search would have found those quotes, but this will make it easy for them.

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  10. Arthur Bloomfield (1895 -1980) was a Methodist minister in the mid west. He taught often on Bible prophecy. His teachings sparked massive revivals.

    In 1945, at a prophecy seminar in Minnesota, five families who heard Bloomfield teach were moved to sell their homes, buy property, and start a missionary organization called Bethany House. They decided to pool their resources and made a factory where they could make goods and use the proceeds to live on, and then use the rest to send out 100 missionaries around the world. The company is known today as Bethany Housewares and is a leading company in the creation of cooking ware. In 1948, with just ten students, they started a missionary college to train their own missionaries. In 1956 they started a publishing company that has published thousands of books around the world. The Publishing Company is called Bethany House Publishers and The College is now an accredited university called Bethany Global University.

    In His book All Things New (a book on revelation) on page 215 Bloomfield said regarding the travailing woman and the man child " this is a picture of the rapture of the church"

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    1. Yes! I have a copy and read Arthur's Bloomfield's Book too! EYEOPENING! "The Male Son" is symbol for soon to be "Pretrib Raptured" Church! Hallelujah! Say Hallelujah! Midtribbers, Prewrathers, Postribbers and Partial Rapturists...for we are going UP! UP! UP! very soon like it or not!

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    2. Yes! I have a copy and read Arthur's Bloomfield's Book too! EYEOPENING! "The Male Son" is symbol for soon to be "Pretrib Raptured" Church! Hallelujah! Say Hallelujah! Midtribbers, Prewrathers, Postribbers and Partial Rapturists...for we are going UP! UP! UP! very soon like it or not!

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    3. Yes! I have a copy and read Arthur's Bloomfield's Book too! EYEOPENING! "The Male Son" is symbol for soon to be "Pretrib Raptured" Church! Hallelujah! Say Hallelujah! Midtribbers, Prewrathers, Postribbers and Partial Rapturists...for we are going UP! UP! UP! very soon like it or not!

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  11. Great article! Jesus had very harsh words for Scribes and the Pharisees; he made it clear that it was man's traditions that were a great stumbling block. I see little difference today, we (the collective we) care more about what men think of us than what God thinks of us, this is why we err.

    -Joe

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  12. Wow! Absolutely amazing! Until I saw Scottie Clark's videos several months ago, I had never heard theory that the male-child is the church. This is getting so exciting! Just think, within a month, we could literally be kneeling before His throne!!

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    1. I had never heard of ANY of this until the day after the eclipse... my church has been occupied elsewhere, Biblically speaking. I'm both very excited, and a little mad that I hadn't heard this sooner!

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  13. It's really very sad, these big ministries might not sell very many books and dvds if they have to admit they have been wrong on most things concerning the rapture. It's their livelihood. You cannot serve God and mammon. I think the fact that it's just everyday humble servants that God is using gives just that much more evidence this is the real deal.

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    1. Indeed. That has been one of the major things that has lent credibility to the teachings here: There is no profit motive. No books to be sold. No ad revenue to be raised.

      Even if there were, the revenue would not cover the vast amounts of time invested by the men and women doing research on this. My brother amassed a decent YouTube following, and he made fractions of a cent --- or went in the hole, most months --- producing content.

      The comments made by the "leaders" of this teaching (I use quotation marks, because they most likely would eschew such a title.) comport themselves with love, humility, and a teachable spirit.

      They are not deserving of the scorn and sarcasm that have been heaped upon them from other quarters.

      The fruit of the Spirit is evident in not just the teaching, but also in the Spirit in which the teachings are presented.

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    2. Very kind words. Thank you brother.

      I have to confess though: there IS a profit motive for us - that is the profit of heavenly treasure and being with the LORD we long to see.

      Maranatha.

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  14. I know you've covered this on Unsealed many times but I'm mindful of 2 Peter 2 and the warning that not only will there be false prophets among us but false teachers too, "even denying the Lord that bought them..."

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  16. I recently listened to a podcast by Evangelist Mike Parker of Prophecies of the End Times called, "No Mans Knows..."
    Copy & paste this link:

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/propheciesoftheendtimes/2017/08/06/no-man-knows

    to listen or download the podcast. It mentions Brad Hurst's study (Systematic Eschatology - The Hermeneutics of Bible Prophecy) concerning Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32, The Feasts of the LORD, The Great America Solar Eclipse, The Revelation 12 Sign and others incredible Hebrew traditions in his bible study. It’s very interesting and insightfully supportive of the current Signs of the End Times. I prayed ten years ago for God to lead me to the truth of His Word and Prophecies and He led to this time and space. Thanks to Unsealed.org, Scott Clarke, Revelation 12 Daily, Parable of the Vineyard, Jonathan Cahn, Mark Biltz, Chuck Missler and many others for thinking outside the box of modern Christian thinking. Look up our redemption is nigh, God bless you all.

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  17. Amazing! So encouraging! We are one body -those that went before us and us that are alive. Brad read Zech 3:8 It speaks of us (the church) as a wondrous sign. It correlates with the great sign language of Rev 12:1.
    Zech 3:8 Hear O Joshua, the high priest, You and your companions who sit before you, for they are a wondrous sign: For behold, I am bringing forth My servant the BRANCH.
    Maranatha -see you soon!

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  18. Amen Charissa!!! Perfect!

    You too, EL! You were one of those I've been praying for!! Hoping so many will wake up! I believe this is what he had in mind for these 40 days and you give me great hope that there are more, many more! - truthseeker

    I have been telling everybody to hang on for there may be more rough times ahead. I expect nothing less from our Father than what "I " would do for a lost child. I exhaust everything possible that I could... to the last minute to get them to wake up . And I know he loves more than I am capable of! His arms are always outstretched, ready to save and His longsuffering is immeasurable! Praising God for his good works, I will hold my hands up in praise; hands up, like a child, and reaching back- ready to go to my Father's arms whenever he is ready to pick me up!

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  19. mys·tic
    ˈmistik/
    noun
    1.
    a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.
    I have never actually searched the meaning of Mystic but the definition is telling. This, a word that used to repell me due to the pagan world using it for corruption.

    Thank you for taking the time to compile this information here for us. It is exciting to note that we are not alone in our Rev12 interpretation......and in good company I should say!

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  20. I thank God for all who are boldly sharing the truth about the lateness of the hour and the Great Sign. Blessings to you!

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  21. There are four companies. The scarlet-clad woman (harlot), her many daughters (the church systems of man), the sun-clad woman (virgin bride of Christ), and the manchild (manifest sons of God). Some precious people, because they have separated from some Babylonish denomination and come out of the church systems assume that this was the “mother church” birthing them into sonship. This, my beloved, is a grievous error! The “mother” of the manchild is not the harlot church system but that virgin church made up exclusively of a people clothed with the living glory of Christ (sun), crowned with the twelve stars of God’s governmental authority, and having the cold, imitative, reflective light (moon) of ceremony, ritual, tradition, program, and creed put under foot. When the Spirit calls, “Come out of her my people,” this is not His call to sons. This is His call urging a people to come out of the defilements of Babylon and be cleansed — that they might by the washing of regeneration and the miracle of sanctification become an entirely new creation — a virgin — unto Christ. And it is this virgin company that shall deliver to this sin-cursed world a manchild, a male child, a full redemption company of saints, overcomers, partakers of the divine nature, fully developed unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, transformed in His pure and holy nature, imbued with His glorious mind, invested with His omnipotent power and authority, the many-membered “seed” of the many-membered “woman” which shall “bruise the head of the serpent” as he conquers sin and death, dethrones satan, blesses and rules the nations, and liberates the whole vast groaning creation from the bondage of sin, sorrow, corruption, and death. O how wonderful are these things! And should some unenlightened reader still entertain the mistaken notion that our Lord Jesus Christ alone is the “seed of the woman” who “bruises the head of the serpent,” I would point you to the wonderful promise of the Lord Jesus Himself through His apostle Paul, “And the God of peace shall bruise satan under YOUR FEET shortly” (Rom. 16:20). Jesus is the Head of that promised seed, even as we are the body. Isn’t it wonderful!

    The sons of God shall be born of a chaste, virgin church, just as the daughters of the harlot are born of a defiled, false church. Both churches bear an offspring! Oh, yes! Without contradiction, this virgin church is the greatest mother that God has planted on the face of the earth, the Jerusalem which is from above. This church is not going out with a whimper or a limp. Nor is it going to be evacuated off the planet (raptured) while the devil runs rampant through the earth. Oh, no! The virgin church and her glorious son shall conclude this age victorious, with joy unspeakable and full of glory, and riding a river of peace, power, wisdom, blessing, life, and redeeming love. It shall arise in freedom from all bondage and limitation, with its feet on the neck of every enemy, and the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. The tempter’s power shall be broken. God’s people shall be holy, strong, anointed, transformed — glorious conquerors. Yes — she will be a great WONDER IN HEAVEN as she brings forth this manchild who shall rule all nations with a rod of iron! That is the mystery.
    - J Preston Eby

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  22. Full article by Preston Eby here: http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev189.htm

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  23. I really love the analogy of Joshua and Caleb, spying out the land. That is exactly how I see it. But there is no wilderness wandering this time. I also relaize our wisemen nold enougj to go look for God on earth followed sign. Probly cost them everything. Think John Bunyan and the Pilgrams Progress.

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  24. I wish this site had a "thumbs-up" button to click, then I would do so for 4thPointOfContact's message of September 1, 2017 at 7:53 AM.

    Lordship "salvation" is so rampant in the visible church. The subtlety of it is shown in a couple of the responses by well-meaning people to 4thPointOfContact's post. So many in the church today claim to believe in "faith alone" for salvation, but compromise with various false scenarios which effectively negate the true Gospel of Grace. They won't say we have to buy salvation, but the idea that "a REAL Christian WILL sin less and bear fruit" is a veiled form of legalism that amounts to reimbursing God to some unstated degree. Ever notice that Lordship Salvationists never state how much improvement is required to validate a believer's salvation? They can't, because it's an undefinable standard, though it often bears a strong resemblance to the particular LSer's perception of their own walk.

    I'm not innocent in the matter. I've lost track of how many times I have personally fallen into the LS trap--always without knowing it--until I collapsed in frustration at trying to keep some supposed standard which would "demonstrate" my "faith", only to realize that I was trusting in myself--obsessed with finding some "proof" of my own salvation. Then I'd start reading my Bible again and rediscover the Gospel of FREE grace.

    Simply put, grace that is not free is not grace at all, and any doctrine which supposes a de-facto mandatory (often called "inevitable") return to God for His un-earned gift of eternal life is false doctrine. Watch out for the trap of Lordship "salvation".

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  25. Chuck, How do you explain this section of James 2:18-26? New International Version (NIV)

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

    25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    We are a new person when we give our lives to Christ. God is gracious, and we balance this with Romans 10:13 "for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?… I'm not pretending to believe it is faith alone. It is faith alone for salvation. But we prove our faith through what we do. Many choose not to. The Corinthian church was saved, but living worse than the unbelievers around them. We will all go before the Lord of the universe who will judge us on what we've done in His power, for His name, for His glory, and be rewarded, though we still won't deserve it.
    I mentioned some passages from John earlier. Take John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." The meaning of the word 'obey' in John 3:36 is synonomous in my NAS Bible, with 'believe'. If we believe, we will obey. Abraham proved his faith by obeying. Rahab proved her faith by hiding the spies. I would be very careful to believe someone who did not practice what they preach. It is God's grace for sure, even our obedience. It is all from Him. Check out John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." Our good deeds come from God. Samson is in the hall of faith. His deeds did not get him there. It was his faith. Same for us. But Samson also had to pay for his pride with his eyes, and ultimatly his life. Obedience brings blessing, not salvation. Obedience is the fruit of salvation because our heart is changed to respond out of love to our God who saved us. To Him be the glory and honor and praise forever. Watch out for the trap of thinking you're saved if you just prayed a prayer when you were 8 and haven't lived like it at all. I would question whether you really meant the prayer in the first place. John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
    In Romans 10:9, where it says if you confess with your mouth that He is Lord- what does that mean Chuck? Lord means master. Verse 10 says "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." What am I missing here?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Charissa, please read this on James 2: https://expreacherman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cucuzza-faith-without-works-is-dead.pdf

      Delete
    2. Charissa, I also ask that you read the article that 4thPointOfContact linked. The articles at the link below explain the issue of James 2 in depth:
      http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=10
      Re: James 2; in that passage James does not necessarily address "salvation" in the soteriological sense. He is referring to the practical effects of not acting out one's belief in this mortal life. That is evident in his example that wishing someone to be "warmed and filled" doesn't actually clothe and feed them. When James says such faith is "dead" and "useless" he is referring to its effects in THIS life. The issue of eternal life is not in view. In the Bible "salvation" can refer to many things depending on context. By the same token, when James mentions being "justified by works" it is evident from the context that he means apparent outward justification before men, not before God.
      You asked:"In Romans 10:9, where it says if you confess with your mouth that He is Lord- what does that mean Chuck?"
      It means we are to trust in the work of the One who is THE Lord God, the Creator, the only One who can give eternal life. It defines who Jesus is. One must acknowledge that Jesus--in addition to being a man--is God, not just some created being. To acknowledge that "Jesus is Lord" is simply to agree with the fact. Jesus is not Lord because we MAKE Him such, but because that is His nature. Agreeing with that objective fact is not the same as submitting to Him AS Lord of one's life. Submission is a matter of sanctification.
      Re: "balance"; look at Romans 4:4,5. Nowhere does Paul tell us to "balance" anything. He compares "the one who works" to "the one who DOES NOT work". There is no "balance" there. The two do not overlap, nor do they even touch. There is an infinite, plunging abyss between them. They are mutually exclusive polar opposites. Btw, Paul's context is clearly justification; being RECKONED righteous in God's sight on the basis of faith. And the "faith" is not "faith to do good works" but faith in "He who justifies the ungodly". God does not justify the godly, the intend-to-be-godly, the wanna-be-godly, the "someday-I'll-be-godlier-by-faith" but the UN-godly. If God doesn't require any degree of "godliness" before we're saved, would He require some degree of godliness from us to STAY saved? Must we reimburse God for His free gift?
      As to John 3:36, John is talking about the same "obedience of faith" that Paul taught in Romans 1:5. That is NOT "faith to keep some standard of obedience". It is obedience to the call to BELIEVE the Gospel of salvation by faith in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

      The great irony in this whole thing is that Lordship "salvationists" have not submitted to Jesus as Lord because they have not submitted to His way of salvation. LSers who insist that, in order to be saved, one must accept Jesus as Lord of one's life in addition to believing on His sacrifice on the cross for one's sins are NOT "submitting to Him as Lord" because they refuse to receive salvation God's way; by accepting it as a free gift. They also refuse to rest in HIS righteousness, prodding believers to incessant self-examination to find some "fruit" that will validate their salvation. Salvation is not a bargain, a purchase, or a trade. It is receiving FREELY--without works or promises--God's gift of eternal life, paid for completely by Jesus, not to be bought by us. Nor is the free gift to be *reimbursed*. Justification is not nullified because the believer fails to be an adequate disciple (whatever "adequate" is).

      If I've seemed to go long about this, it's in the hope of preventing someone from languishing in the LS trap. The LS issue which has cropped up here (it wasn't my doing!) is FAR more important than the Rev. 12 sign.

      Delete
  26. I want to thank everyone who has spent time researching and writing articals on this website. Great job! You've been keeping your eyes fixed on Jesus and I feel that He is blessing your walk, by not letting you sink.

    ReplyDelete
  27. "...So then the time of the reception of the glorified body is yet in front of us, in front of all they that have had hope of it. It is YET TO COME TO US. But it shall come, it shall be given, it shall be done in a moment, in
    the twinkling of an eye. This is the true “rapture”, to be caught up in the victory of Christ over all the
    spoiled principality and power, caught up to rule OVER all things, caught up to the height of being found
    with Jesus at the right hand of the Father with all other powers being made subject unto Him. That is the final place of our faith and it is done HERE while we stand upon the earth!

    The Overcomers have one distinct marking that will tell you if they are part of this “soon to be glorified” company of Sons and Daughters. They bear all the marks of the cross. And at the point of glorification, the cross in its all consuming power WILL BE COMPLETE AND AT AN END. When (and only when) that day comes will the
    cross have done all its work, the power and scope of it would be needed no longer, the finality of its power
    to separate the carnal mind from the mind of the spirit will be at an end.
    This catching up, this “rapture”
    happens WHILE WE STAND UPON THE EARTH. It is here that this final victory comes.

    In this wise shall the Lord come. Through the pineal gland shall the spirit of holiness in infinite power, the complete person of Christ pour down into the physical body of the Overcomer. The inner elements of the
    body and the inner thoughts of the heart will then be consumed by the descent and manifested presence
    of Christ in but a split second moment of time. The transformation will be eternal and it will be complete,
    there will be no more necessary thing to be added to it. No further growth in learning anything will be needed for all the full counsel of the Lord will be their mind and all the person of the Father will be their portion. The infinite size, weight and person of God will reside in each Overcomer, not God broken down into smaller pieces and spread about the tallied number of Overcomers, but God in full person in each one as each one abides ALONE where they are now scattered throughout the nations. Each individual Overcomer will have all the complete fullness of the Lord infinitely upon them, no part of the Lord lacking at all in any area, not lacking in wisdom, not lacking in understanding, not lacking in anything of the personality of The Father. All who had seen Jesus saw the Father. All who will see the Overcomer will see
    exactly the same. There will finally be a people in the world of men in whom there is NO lack!

    Flowing within them will be the everlasting blood of the covenant, the eternal life of the living Christ
    without any restricted measure flowing through their veins. Eternal shall the mortal cells of their body be,
    unlimited in power to raise and to resuscitate the world of men for whom Christ died and redeemed. This
    is the heritage of the Overcomer, the place of their future life, their life of being found deathless in the
    midst of this world and then bringing the entire creation into that deathless state. Such is the honor given to they that overcome.
    - Kenneth B Visscher
    Facets of the Glorified Body Pt.5

    ReplyDelete
  28. (1st Vision)
    “The body glorified during the age of the millennium, or the age wherein Christ rules over the nations with
    a rod of iron.
    As the Lord did sit and rule over the nations of men, I saw those people whom He had glorified in new bodies move and motion as the Lord moved and motioned. As the Lord did move and work and express words from His seated position upon the Throne, so did the glorified company of Overcomers, each one individually, move and work and action in identical manner. As the Lord did think with His mind upon the Throne, so did the Overcomers think with the very same thoughts simultaneously with the Lord’s mind. As the Overcomers thought while walking about in the midst of all the creation, so did the Lord upon
    the Throne over all think. While the Overcomer had thought, the Lord thought the same, while the Lord did
    think, the Overcomer thought the same. Both were of one mind, one body, one action both verbally and in holy motivation and in purpose.

    The Lord was fully omnipotent, able to be in all places at once by the power of His spirit. What amazed me was that the Overcomers in glorified bodies were now also the same, they were able to appear with the Lord upon the Throne, as well as upon the earth, as well as under the earth in the realms of hell where some were yet in death and dying, in all three realms the Overcomers did
    appear all at the very same time. They did not appear just in one place, they appeared in as many places as was necessary for the Oracles of the Lord to be carried out for the Overcomers formed this government of the Lord and of His Kingdom. The rod of iron the Lord did wield over the nations, that same rod of iron the Overcomers did wield. They did walk in spirit at the same time as they walked in their newly raised bodies. Not only did they appear upon the Throne, upon the earth or under the earth, they also appeared
    throughout the entire infinite expanse of the cosmos. For their spirits had melded as one with the spirit of
    the creator so that there was no division of the spirit of an Overcomer and the spirit of the Lord, both were
    exactly the same in this glorified state, both filled all things including the cosmos and including all space
    and time. The Overcomers were able to dissolve from the view of natural eyes and appear before natural eyes at will. They were able to walk through any place upon the earth with nothing blocking their way. No wall or building was able to keep them out, no place on the earth was able to stop them from appearing or disappearing. Also, the peoples of the earth and of the nations, when viewing the Overcomers, they did see the full person of the Lord as though they saw the Lord Himself in person, the Overcomers were that much in identity with the risen Christ.

    These things are hard to comprehend but it is best to understand that the Overcomers at the point of glorification at the coming of Christ will be as He is in all realms.”
    (End vision)
    - Kenneth B Visscher

    ReplyDelete
  29. (1st Vision)
    “The body glorified during the age of the millennium, or the age wherein Christ rules over the nations with
    a rod of iron.
    As the Lord did sit and rule over the nations of men, I saw those people whom He had glorified in new bodies move and motion as the Lord moved and motioned. As the Lord did move and work and express words from His seated position upon the Throne, so did the glorified company of Overcomers, each one individually, move and work and action in identical manner. As the Lord did think with His mind upon the Throne, so did the Overcomers think with the very same thoughts simultaneously with the Lord’s mind. As the Overcomers thought while walking about in the midst of all the creation, so did the Lord upon
    the Throne over all think. While the Overcomer had thought, the Lord thought the same, while the Lord did
    think, the Overcomer thought the same. Both were of one mind, one body, one action both verbally and in holy motivation and in purpose.

    The Lord was fully omnipotent, able to be in all places at once by the power of His spirit. What amazed me was that the Overcomers in glorified bodies were now also the same, they were able to appear with the Lord upon the Throne, as well as upon the earth, as well as under the earth in the realms of hell where some were yet in death and dying, in all three realms the Overcomers did
    appear all at the very same time. They did not appear just in one place, they appeared in as many places as was necessary for the Oracles of the Lord to be carried out for the Overcomers formed this government of the Lord and of His Kingdom. The rod of iron the Lord did wield over the nations, that same rod of iron the Overcomers did wield. They did walk in spirit at the same time as they walked in their newly raised bodies. Not only did they appear upon the Throne, upon the earth or under the earth, they also appeared
    throughout the entire infinite expanse of the cosmos. For their spirits had melded as one with the spirit of
    the creator so that there was no division of the spirit of an Overcomer and the spirit of the Lord, both were
    exactly the same in this glorified state, both filled all things including the cosmos and including all space
    and time. The Overcomers were able to dissolve from the view of natural eyes and appear before natural eyes at will. They were able to walk through any place upon the earth with nothing blocking their way. No wall or building was able to keep them out, no place on the earth was able to stop them from appearing or disappearing. Also, the peoples of the earth and of the nations, when viewing the Overcomers, they did see the full person of the Lord as though they saw the Lord Himself in person, the Overcomers were that much in identity with the risen Christ.

    These things are hard to comprehend but it is best to understand that the Overcomers at the point of glorification at the coming of Christ will be as He is in all realms.”
    (End vision)
    - Kenneth B Visscher

    ReplyDelete
  30. Part 1
    My email is dalecsc@charter.net
    Before you read this amazing exegetical work of Michael Svigel on Rev 12:1-5, please watch a short video that will BLOW YOUR MIND!:

    “The Cutting Edge 2” channel has several excellent videos on the Rev Sign. He is a strong Pre-trib Rapture Christian!
    Be sure to see his video (created by “dahboo77” Channel) , "Red Dragon of Revelation 12 - Google Sky Coverup Exposed - See It For Yourself!"

    Guys, the Red dragon is a real object -Planet X! This is a MIND BLOWER!

    "Michael Svigel on Rev 12:1-5":
    Are you aware of the AMAZING exegetical work of Michael Svigel on Rev 12:1-5, an Associate Professor of Theological Studies at DTS, (Dallas Theological Seminary? His work is very scholarly and is in support of Rev 12:5 referring to the Rapture! It may likely be the best detailed exegesis available! I provide links for these articles below.

    The following is an email I sent to Dr. Thomas Ice:
    Hopefully he will see the light soon! This is the email I sent him and Dr. Woods.

    “Dr. Ice and Dr. Woods,

    Please read the 2 articles below by Dr. Michael Svigel, Associate Professor of Theological Studies at DTS.

    They are an exegesis of the symbol of the catching up of the male child in Revelation 12:5. See the highlighted paragraph below for a quick summary. This verse, REV 12:5, translated correctly, is perhaps the strongest Pre-Trib Rapture evidence in the Bible! He writes, “In fact, the earliest advocates of a pre-tribulation rapture (John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, William Blackstone, H.A. Ironside, etc.) pointed to this passage as decisive exegetical evidence for a pre-seven-year rapture of the church.”

    Michael Svigel has written about Rev 12:1-5 in these two articles in which he writes: “Five considerations persuaded me of this conclusion”:

    1. The following paragraphs are an excerpt about this subject as part of an interview: “The Pre-Tribulational Rapture: Michael Svigel”. http://mydigitalseminary.com/pre-tribulational-rapture-interview-michael-svigel/ This Article is an exegesis of the symbol of the catching up of the male child in Revelation 12:5

    2 “The Apocalypse of John and the Rapture of the Church: A Reevaluation” Trinity Journal 22 (2001): 23–74. A technical critique of views of the rapture in Revelation and an exegetical defense of the rapture in Revelation 12:5. Online at https://bible.org/article/apocalypse-john-and-rapture-church-reevaluation .

    At the end of this email, I list 3 videos expositing Rev 1-5 to show how this topic has been explained to the public. The first is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGkaSXIrss0&index=2&list=PLsa5IqNLzmFDegks07EuLyq1Z-gfB5vMY

    The following is an excerpt from an Interview: “The Pre-Tribulational Rapture: Michael Svigel”.

    “However, my persuasion to the pre-tribulational rapture came as a result of an exegesis of the symbol of the catching up of the male child in Revelation 12:5—a consideration almost entirely lost (or dismissively ignored) in the discussion of the rapture. In fact, the earliest advocates of a pre-tribulational rapture (John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, William Blackstone, H.A. Ironside, etc.) pointed to this passage as decisive exegetical evidence for a pre-seven-year rapture of the church. The problem is, of course, this is a symbolic vision that needs to be carefully interpreted and the interpretational issues are complicated and require a working knowledge of the original Greek. Also, it requires that the exegete has already concluded that Revelation is to be interpreted in a premillennial, futurist light. I argue that the symbol of the male child in Revelation 12:5 is best identified as the body of Christ, the church, and the child’s catching up to God and His throne is best identified as the catching up of the body of Christ elsewhere described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    Five considerations persuaded me of this conclusion:

    Part 2

    1 Consistency in Symbolism.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Five considerations persuaded me of this conclusion:

    Part 2

    1 Consistency in Symbolism. The woman represents a corporate entity (Israel, see Genesis 37:9–10); the Dragon represents a corporate entity (the world system controlled by Satan, see the total of seven heads and ten horns in the series of monsters in Daniel 7:1–7) and the male child as the body of Christ would also represent a corporate entity (Christ in union with His body, the Church, see 1 Corinthians 12:12, etc.).

    2 Allusion to Isaiah 66:7-8. The use of the neuter adjective arsen (male) modifying the masculine noun huios (son) and the image of Israel giving birth points careful readers back to Isaiah 66:7–8, where we read in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament): “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy (arsen). Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her children.” The image is parallel in Revelation, and John explicitly breaks the rules of Greek grammar (modifying the masculine “son” with the neuter “male”) to point us back to this passage in Isaiah 66. The child in both cases is corporate, not individual.

    3 Symbolic Background of Daniel 7. I think John uses the term huios (son) in Revelation 12:5 to connect us to the vision of the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7:13–14, which is interpreted corporately as the Messiah and His saints in 7:18; 26–27. John uses the term “son” in Revelation 12:5, literally “she gave birth to a son, a male,” not the term “child,” as most translations render it. Most people miss that the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7 is interpreted by the angel corporately,

    which fits well with Revelation 12:5’s “male son” interpreted corporately as the body of Christ. Also, the image of the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon symbol earlier in this vision already pointed us back to Daniel 7, which seems to stand behind this vision of Revelation 12.

    4 The Male Child is “Snatched Up.” The word in Revelation 12:5 is the word for “rapture,” harpazo, and always means a sudden removal, a snatching. In contrast, for the ascension of Christ, the New Testament uses terms such as “to be lifted up,” epairo (Acts 1:9), “to ascend,” anabaino (John 20:17; Ephesians 4:8-10) and “to take up,” analambano (Mark 16:19; Luke 1:11). These are neutral terms meaning a removal from one place to another. Revelation 12:5 has the male child being suddenly snatched away from the dragon, who wants to devour the child. The ascension of Christ was gradual (Acts 1:10), not sudden. Also, Revelation 12:5 is a context of “rescue” from the threat of the dragon. The word “rapture,” harpazo, is appropriately used in the New Testament for a rescue in Acts 23:10 and Jude 23. In His ascension to heaven, Christ was not rescued, but ascended victoriously and was no danger from the devil or anybody else. The term “rapture,” harpazo, is never used of Christ’s ascension to heaven. Thus, the use of harpazo in a rescue context like Revelation 12:5 is completely inappropriate to describe the ascension of Christ, but is completely appropriate to describe the rapture of the church as a rescue from Satan’s emerging efforts to destroy the church as we approach the end times.

    5 Corporate application of Psalm 2:9 in Revelation 2:26-27; 12:5; and 19:14-15. In Psalm 2:9, God tells the Messiah,

    ReplyDelete
  32. Part 3
    5 Corporate application of Psalm 2:9 in Revelation 2:26-27; 12:5; and 19:14-15. In Psalm 2:9, God tells the Messiah, “‘You will break them [the nations] with a rod of iron, You will shatter them like earthenware.’” In Revelation 2:26-27, Christ extends this promise to the Church, the body of Christ: “‘And he who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received [authority] from My Father.” In Revelation 19:14-15, Christ and the armies come to earth, fulfilling the promise: “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white [and] clean, were following Him on white horses. And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.” This same Psalm is quoted in Revelation 12:5 and applied to the male child. Thus, the male child as Christ in union with His body, the Church, is most consistent with the application of the promise of Psalm 2:9 extended both to Christ and the Church.

    My conclusion is this: 1) There is no good exegetical reason to reject the view that the male child represents the Church in union with Christ. 2) The common identification of the male child as Christ alone doesn’t account for all of the exegetical evidence, ignoring the informing image of Isaiah 66 and actually contradicting the basic meaning of harpazo. 3) The identification of the male child as the Church in union with Christ incorporates all of the evidence. 4) Therefore, the best interpretation of Revelation 12:5 is the rapture of the Church described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    Having identified the male child as the body of Christ and its catching up as the rapture, the next question we have to answer is whether this vision presents a pre-seven-year rapture. After the male child is caught up (Revelation 12:5), we are told that there is war in heaven. Michael the archangel and his army fight the Dragon, who is cast down to the earth (12:7-9). Remember that the archangel is also associated with the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. This war in heaven takes some amount of time, as Daniel 10:13reveals. However, when the Dragon is finally cast down there is a song of victory in heaven (12:10-12). Read in the light of the Church being raptured before the tribulation, this song makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it?

    After the Dragon is cast down, he turns to attack the woman, the faithful remnant of Israel who reappears during the tribulation (7:1-8). Before the woman is preserved in the wilderness for 1,260, days, however, the Dragon, working through the world powers, launches an attack on Israel with an army (12:13-16). The image of the flood in Old Testament prophecy is that of an invasion (Ezekiel 1:24; Daniel 9:27). So, first the Dragon tries to destroy the woman with an invasion (first half of tribulation), but the army is defeated. Then, the woman flees to be protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days (second half of tribulation).

    Utterly frustrated at his repeatedly failed plans, the Dragon turns his attention to the “rest of the offspring” of the woman, those who are saved during the tribulation (the “great multitude” of Revelation 7:9-17, which pre-tribulationists call the “tribulation saints”). The Dragon turns to a different means of combating the people of God: the Antichrist. It is at the middle of the tribulation that the 42 months of authority of the beast begins, described in Revelation 13.

    So, to sum up,

    ReplyDelete
  33. Part 4
    So, to sum up, the catching up of the male child and the resulting war in heaven both take place at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation. The war in heaven and casting down of Satan, followed by the earthly invasion, attempted attack on Israel, and the flight of the woman, all take place in the first three-and-a-half years. Then the reign of the Beast take place in the second half of the tribulation. Therefore, the catching up of the male child (the rapture) takes place before the seven-year tribulation.

    I hope you produce some videos on his arguments!

    Michael Svigel articles:

    1 Michael Svigel article/interview: http://mydigitalseminary.com/pre-tribulational-rapture-interview-michael-svigel/

    2. “The Apocalypse of John and the Rapture of the Church: A Reevaluation” Trinity Journal 22 (2001): 23–74. A technical critique of views of the rapture in Revelation and an exegetical defense of the rapture in Revelation 12:5. Online at https://bible.org/article/apocalypse-john-and-rapture-church-reevaluation .

    3 Alan's Otiot Study On the Word "Netchatef:" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQS5Q... And about the Mazzaroth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdgTZ...

    ReplyDelete
  34. Part 4
    So, to sum up, the catching up of the male child and the resulting war in heaven both take place at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation. The war in heaven and casting down of Satan, followed by the earthly invasion, attempted attack on Israel, and the flight of the woman, all take place in the first three-and-a-half years. Then the reign of the Beast take place in the second half of the tribulation. Therefore, the catching up of the male child (the rapture) takes place before the seven-year tribulation.

    I hope you produce some videos on his arguments!

    Michael Svigel articles:

    1 Michael Svigel article/interview: http://mydigitalseminary.com/pre-tribulational-rapture-interview-michael-svigel/

    2. “The Apocalypse of John and the Rapture of the Church: A Reevaluation” Trinity Journal 22 (2001): 23–74. A technical critique of views of the rapture in Revelation and an exegetical defense of the rapture in Revelation 12:5. Online at https://bible.org/article/apocalypse-john-and-rapture-church-reevaluation .

    3 Alan's Otiot Study On the Word "Netchatef:" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQS5Q... And about the Mazzaroth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdgTZ...

    ReplyDelete
  35. If the Revelation 12:5 man child is the Church, why isn't the 144,000 recorded being raptured at the midpoint of the tribulation as seen in heaven in Revelation 14? They just arrived there out of nowhere? Paul's gosepl is COMPLETELY missing in Revelation 2 and 3 to the churches because these churches are not "ages" of the body of Christ believers nor has anything to do with the Church/BOC, they're 7 Jewish assemblies Jesus is addressing and yes the word "church" doesn't always refer to the BOC as Acts 7:38 proves. The Church is not the seed of the woman Israel, the 144,000 are and is the man child. Rightly dividing is key everyone

    ReplyDelete
  36. If the Revelation 12:5 man child is the Church, why isn't the 144,000 recorded being raptured at the midpoint of the tribulation as seen in heaven in Revelation 14? They just arrived there out of nowhere? Paul's gosepl is COMPLETELY missing in Revelation 2 and 3 to the churches because these churches are not "ages" of the body of Christ believers nor has anything to do with the Church/BOC, they're 7 Jewish assemblies Jesus is addressing and yes the word "church" doesn't always refer to the BOC as Acts 7:38 proves. The Church is not the seed of the woman Israel, the 144,000 are and is the man child. Rightly dividing is key everyone

    ReplyDelete


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