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Hype Or Not?


As I've studied Revelation 12 and whether or not the astronomical alignment on September 23rd, 2017 fulfills the heavenly sign that the Apostle John saw, I've tried to poke as many holes in it as I can.  An argument is only strong if it can withstand continual scrutiny.  I've heard dozens of supposed rebuttals and arguments against it and I've even prayed that if this isn't the sign for God to show me where we went wrong in identifying it as such.  Yet after dozens of objections falling flat I find my confidence in this theory only growing.  More details are coming out virtually every week that seem to substantiate it even more.

I don't think I can ever get to the point where I can emphatically state this is the fulfillment of the sign John saw because I am no prophet and God hasn't audibly spoken to me anything about this.  I'm just studying His Word, listening to a myriad of other Believers seeing the same thing, and comparing what I see in the Bible with what I see in present-day reality, and it just seems to fit.  Perfectly.

I want to share with you my most recent approach to disproving this thing, which was to list out a series of simple questions that would have straightforward and unequivocal biblical answers.  The September alignment would have to pass muster on all of these questions to be the sign for sure.


1. In the Book of Revelation did the Apostle John say that he saw a sign in the sky or not?

He says he saw a sign.  No question about it:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. - Revelation 12:1

The inclusion of the sun, moon, and stars just drives home the point even further.  Those are real astronomical objects you can look up and see with your own two eyes.  He is not talking about clouds or comets or a one-time mysterious apparition.  John lists very specific objects that appear in the sky day after day.  God created these objects for signs according to Genesis 1:14.


2. Does the text say the sign that John sees is only figurative?

No.  As a matter of fact nowhere in the passage did John say what he saw was a parable or mere symbol.  If we are going to trust God's Word then we have to be silent where it is silent and speak where it speaks.  John says he saw a sign in the sky, so he literally saw a sign in the sky.  In my humble opinion, we have no more right to discount the real astronomical aspect of this sign then we do to discount the real death and resurrection of Christ.

We know that this sign has a real and tangible meaning because of a myriad of Scriptural cross-references including some in the passage itself (the woman is Israel about to enter the Tribulation, the dragon is satan and his world dominion, and the child is the Church in union with Christ), but first and foremost it is an actual sign in the sky according to the text.  Elsewhere in the Bible when a passage is merely a symbol or parable, the text itself says so - and usually in the very same passage.


3. Is Revelation primarily about historical events or is it primarily about future events?

The very first verse in the Book of Revelation says:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John. - Revelation 1:1

Revelation was written when John was an old man, exiled to the island of Patmos.  It was written years after the other events recorded in the New Testament.  There is also near-unanimous scholarly consensus that it was written between 90 AD and 100 AD.  The very first verse tells us that the contents of the vision are largely unfulfilled.  Revelation 1:19 is a minor caveat speaking either of the few preceding verses or of the first three chapters, but the eschatological basis for the book is futurism.

Preterist interpretations of the Book of Revelation run dead-end into three major exegetical issues:

First, as said above, the very first verse of the book places its contents largely in the future.

Second, preterist interpreters take huge and unjustifiable liberties in interpreting the text - suggesting the bulk of its contents mean things contrary to what the text plainly says.

Third, in attempting to allegorize most of its contents, key details are neglected and even ignored entirely.  Words and details matter.  At first glance this would seem to be a concerning violation of the warning given in the book's last chapter:

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. - Revelation 22:18-19


4. What elements would God use to show this sign in the sky?

Genesis 1:14 and Revelation 12:1 give us the straightforward answer: the sun, the moon, and the stars.  Genesis 1:14 tells us that two of the key purposes for the creation of the sun, moon, and stars is for signs and marking appointed times.  The Bible lists no other objects as created for signs in the Genesis creation account.  Only the sun, moon, and stars serve this purpose.

Revelation 12 actually tells us which specific heavenly objects are involved in the Great Sign: the sun, the moon, and twelve stars.  The only guesswork left for us is to identify the woman and the male child and what constitutes the twelve stars.


5. What object in the sky would represent the woman?

According to the International Astronomical Union there are 88 constellations in the sky.  Many of these are actually modern inventions.  Of those 88, only three represent women.  In theory any of those three could represent the woman in Revelation 12, but the Bible gives us three key details that weed out two of the three: she is clothed with the sun, has the moon under her feet, and is giving birth to a male child.  The only way these key details can be fulfilled is if the woman we are looking for resides along the ecliptic - the apparent path that the sun appears to traverse each year.

There is only a single constellation in the entire sky that fits the bill: the constellation Virgo.  Virgo is Latin for "virgin" or "maiden".  In virtually all ancient Middle Eastern cultures she represented the woman and still today represents a woman - even in ancient Israel as this Jewish mosaic from the 6th century shows.

The Bible says that God made the stars for signs and constellations are widely-recognized groupings of stars.  The Bible says that God Himself is the one who brings out the constellations of the Zodiac night after night (called the Mazzaroth in the Bible: Job 38:31-32) and He is the Creator of the constellations themselves (Job 9:9, Amos 5:8).

Virgo is the one and only object in the entire sky that could represent "the woman".


6. What object in the sky would represent the male child?

There are at least three definite conditions that have to be met for this object:

First, it must be something that can enter and exit the constellation Virgo.  This seems obvious enough.  A baby begins his life in the womb of his mother and then around nine or ten months later comes out of the womb.

Second, it must be something that can reside in the constellation's "womb" for the length of gestation (usually 37-42 weeks, although sometimes pregnancies reach 44 weeks).  Since the sign is given to humans, for humans, and the text explicitly says the woman is pregnant, then this condition is a must.  God's Word is either true or it isn't.

Third, since there are only three types of objects in the sky that the Bible says were given for signs (the sun, moon, and stars according to Genesis 1:14) and Revelation 12:1 says this is a sign in the sky that we're looking at, we can venture to say that the male child must also be either the sun, moon, or a star.

Revelation 12:1 already assigned separate roles to the sun (clothing the woman) and the moon (under her feet).  On top of that, the sun can only reside in Virgo's womb for about five or six days, while the moon can only reside in her womb for about one day.  There is no way to fit the pregnancy with either of those.

This only leaves us stars to consider.  Stars as we know them today remain fixed in the rotating field of stars in our celestial sphere.  They all appear to rotate and move together and no star as we define them today could enter Virgo's womb and then leave nine or ten months later.  However, the Bible calls planets stars as well using the same Greek word ἀστήρ.  For example, planets are generally called wandering stars in Jude 1:13 as a comparison to the unrighteous and in Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16, the planets Venus and/or Jupiter are called stars as a comparison to Christ.  A variety of ancient extra-biblical sources say the same thing: planets were considered to be wandering stars.

Also, planets are the only objects in the sky, besides the sun and moon, that can appear to enter and exit Virgo's womb.  They are also the only objects that can reside there for the length of a pregnancy - specifically one planet, Jupiter.  All the planets appear to pass through Virgo's womb because she resides along the ecliptic, but only Jupiter can reside in her womb for the needed length and only when it undergoes what we call retrograde motion, and it happens very rarely.

There are two reasons this is so rare.  The first is because planets are usually moving in the same direction along the ecliptic and sometimes Jupiter passes right through Virgo's womb in as short a time as about one and a quarter months.  The second is because even when Jupiter does undergo apparent retrograde motion in Virgo's womb, the planet's path takes it far outside the womb.  In other words, retrograde motion happens, but it doesn't line up with the constellation.

You can use deductive reasoning alone to determine that Jupiter is the only object in the sky that can represent the male child.  And once you arrive at that conclusion, there are a number of substantiating facts about Jupiter: first, it was likely the Star of Bethlehem, and second, Jupiter was considered to be the king planet, king of the gods, and/or the son of the chief god across ancient cultures.


7. What object in the sky would represent the crown of twelve stars?

In every known depiction of the constellation Virgo, whether ancient or modern, her head is near the star called Zavijava and there is one and only one constellation above her head - the constellation Leo the Lion.  Leo is also visible in the ancient Jewish mosaic of the Mazzaroth.

Sources differ on how many stars constitute any given constellation, so which source do we listen to?

For starters, any large constellation like Leo is going to have dozens and dozens of visible stars.  If the crown consists of all the visible stars in a given area above Virgo's head, then Revelation 12:1 could never be fulfilled - she could never have a crown of twelve stars.  We can deduce from this alone that we're only looking for a meaningful grouping of stars above her head and that only leaves the constellation Leo.  Some have suggested the constellation Coma Berenices is her crown of twelve stars, but this constellation is definitely not on her head and it only has three main stars.

As far as which source to listen to regarding the number of stars in Leo, both ancient and modern sources differ one from another.  Ancient Egypt differed from ancient Babylon which differed from ancient Greece and so forth.  Some ancient and modern sources even show Leo with thirteen or fifteen stars - too many to be the crown.

In my research I discovered that this dilemma is easy to resolve.  The most prevalent depiction (by far) shows Leo with nine stars.  You can find this nine-star depiction in virtually any astronomy software except for Google Sky (Stellarium, Starry Night, Neave, among others).  The nine-star arrangement is found in the Western sky culture, which is considered to be the most common and traditional arrangement of the constellations.  Additionally, the nine stars in question are found in all the various arrangements from all the different sources.  In other words, the common denominator across all depictions of Leo are these nine stars.

Since we can pretty emphatically say that Leo is the only object that can be the crown and it cannot have more than twelve stars if it is the crown, then nine stars is definitely the best and most universally understood number of stars within it.  That leaves three missing stars.  Planets are the only solution to these three missing stars because the Bible also calls them stars.  The five visible planets are also very, very bright from earth's perspective compared to most regular stars, so they stand out significantly.

The five visible planets are Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn.  Jupiter has already been identified as the male child, so that means three of the stars in Virgo's crown must be from those remaining four.  You're not left with many options!


8. Does the alignment in September 2017 fit with the description given in Revelation 12?

Yes.  The constellation Virgo is clothed with the sun.  The moon is literally under her feet and not just at her feet - it's unusually close by, too.  The most commonly and easily identifiable grouping of twelve stars that could be above her head are above her head (Leo plus Mercury, Mars, and Venus).  Virgo is pregnant with the only object that could simultaneously represent a male child and reside in her womb for the actual length of a human pregnancy (Jupiter).  Jupiter resides in Virgo's womb for the exact length of a human pregnancy.  All of these elements appear together at the same time, which hasn't happened since 3915 BC and won't happen again for one thousand years or more into the future.


9. Is there some other celestial event or alignment that could conceivably be a more perfect fulfillment of Revelation 12 that we are overlooking?

I've heard dozens of theories and tried to find alternatives myself, but there is nothing out there.  Every alternative theory fails the test and not just on one or two of these questions, but on many of them.  I don't know how else to say this, but if God's Word is inerrant then we need to be looking for a perfect fit.  September 2017 appears to be a perfect fit to me and many others.


10. Why don't we yet see the Great Red Dragon spoken of in Revelation 12:3-4 and is its seeming absence a critical flaw in this theory?

This is the one and only question that I acknowledge as posing a possible problem.  If we agree that the "great sign" of the woman is a sign in the sky because the text says so, we need to humbly acknowledge that the text also says the dragon appears as a sign in the sky, as well.  I know that some are trying to put a picture together using some of the constellations below her feet to form the seven-headed dragon and others are suggesting that the infamous "Planet X" is about to make its appearance near Virgo's feet because of a Google Sky cover-up, but I'm not fully convinced by either of these theories.  I don't want to discount either or even both theories, but I haven't seen anything yet that looks like an undeniably perfect fit.  However, that being said, I want to make a couple points about this:

First, Revelation 12:3 very clearly says the appearance of the dragon is "another sign".  They are two different signs and for that reason you could argue the first sign (of the woman) stands on its own evidence and credentials.  There are no indications in the text of precisely how the two signs fit together regarding elements or timing except that the dragon is nearby and ready to devour the child upon birth.

Second, the evidence for the first sign in Revelation 12 seems to me to be pretty undeniable.  Nothing else fits as far as I know - not only in our lifetimes, but in all of human history going six thousand years back and at least one thousand years into the future.  You could make the argument that the alignment in September 2017 is definitely the sign in the sky that John saw and therefore it is irrelevant whether we see or understand the second sign.  I wouldn't go quite that far, to say it is irrelevant, but you get the point.


If this is the Revelation 12 Sign, what might it mean?  Scottie Clarke addresses this question in a new video that I would encourage you to watch:


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49 comments :

  1. The King (Jupiter) is wearing a crown. Here is the link, but if you don't trust me, just look the NASA Astronomy picture of the day for July 11, 2016.
    https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap160711.html

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    1. Very cool picture! I like this quote from the NASA website:

      "Recent aurorae on Jupiter have been particularly strong"

      Keyword "recent"

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    3. NASA has no photos of the planets. Even they claim their images are all composits, so showing us a picture of Jupiter with a suppossed aurora looks as fake as everything else they present to the public. Just looking at it looks ridiculous.

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  2. Regarding why there is (yet) nothing definite in the sky corresponding to the great red dragon: Isn't John's vantage point still from heaven (since Rev 4:1), and hasn't he been witnessing tribulation events from there? If the woman giving birth represents the pretrib rapture, then obviously chapter 12 is rewinding to a point before any of these later visions. The dragon (Satan and his world system) misses the opportunity to devour the child because the child is "harpazoed" out of there, and so the Church is safely out of the way before Satan becomes any more manifest than he currently is. Once the tribulation begins, there's no telling what might appear in the sky, but I don't quite see why we necessarily need to see it coming beforehand (Nibiru and blanked out Google sky maps notwithstanding).

    If John was seeing this vision from heaven, wouldn't he have an unimaginably clear and unobstructed view of the sun, moon and stars comprising it, and probably also additional details supplementing the pattern of celestial bodies that we see from earth, including a dragon with seven heads, etc. A non-astronomer human looking at Virgo from earth's northern hemisphere on September 23rd, 2017 might not appreciate anything particularly unusual, especially if he weren't aware of its significance. It might just seem like an ordinary view of the western sky at sunset in the early fall - a bunch of stars. John's vision goes on to describe the woman fleeing into the wilderness. Even in the early tribulation, the constellation Virgo won't do anything corresponding to that. In other words, maybe there's no reason to expect to see the dragon in the sky from earth as we await the rapture. The rapture is for the Church, and the sign of the woman seems to point to it. Whatever happens afterward is not directly the Church's concern, and thus there may be no reason to see it in the sky as the time approaches.

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    1. We should consider that people that lived before electricity likely had a completely different opinion about the sky view being "just a bunch of stars". Literally every human was exposed to the glorious creation NIGHTLY. Unlike our modern, and often Western perspective, people were well aware of anything unusual in the night sky without having to go google it. However, predicting a unique event was virtually impossible and that is why the sign is so important as a clear prophecy in our time. We have the technology to not only predict a unique event but also be able to show it to the whole world.

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  3. Attached is a link to Google Sky's current depiction of the constellation Virgo, as it appears through the infra-red filter. Is the object lurking behind the blacked-out box a possible candidate for the Red Dragon? (Note its location, and the likeness of a "wing" fanning out from behind the box.) https://www.google.com/sky/#latitude=-0.25545995454542997&longitude=21.668944362500042&zoom=5&Spitzer=0.00&ChandraXO=0.00&Galex=0.00&IRAS=100.00&WMAP=0.00&Cassini=0.00&slide=3&mI=1&oI=1

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  4. Thank you so much, Gary. Great post and insight! A true watchman. Shared on both my FB pages!

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    1. Thank you for sharing Scott! Glad to be watching with you.

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  5. Thanks Gary. I will share this on my page. Good stuff. If this is not the Sign, then I would like to hear what could be the real deal, if this isn't. The truth is that mockers have it wrong and they are fulfilling the Scriptures.

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    1. Thank you Daniel. I think this study showed me that not only does the alignment in September fit the description in Rev. 12, but it's actually the only way it COULD fit.

      The woman has to be Virgo.
      The male child has to be Jupiter.
      The crown has to be Leo + 3 of the 4 remaining visible planets.

      It all fits beautifully.

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  6. From Jeff Feezle (on Facebook) Rev 12 is The Sign of 'what'? This detailed analysis, although thoughtful, brings us no closer to the Mystery being unveiled. If you believe in dispensations, then the New Covenant needs to be fulfilled by the JEWS, not the gentiles. Who is the Trib for? Who is the Temple being rebuilt for? Who is the 144,000? In every case, it's for Israel, in order to bring them to fulfillment of a Covenant of God! To say it's a rapture sign, is replacement theology: replacing the Jews with the gentiles, and that's it. It's a Yom Teruah blast; a warning to the Jews that Jesus is coming. It's possibly a calling together of the 144,000, which are ALL Jews, 12,000 from each Tribe, meticulously outlined in Revelation. So i BEG of all True Believers: think deeper to WHY God chose the Jews in the first place, to be chosen as His examples to the gentiles and for faith: first for Jesus' bloodline, and lastly, to be the new bloodline for the New Kingdom, the New Jerusalem.

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  7. Revelation 12 verse 9 says that the Dragon is the Devil, who makes war with Michael. Is it possible the Dragon is not a constellation at all but is actually the devil, coming with his whole demonic army to stop the rapture?

    I do not believe in planet x, but the text tells us the devil is there before the birth to stop it. When he fails he apparently launches a war against Heaven itself.

    Perhaps the rea son for the sudden rapture is to rescue us from this attack. Since the chapter interprets the sign of the Dragon for us, this may be the answer.

    I don't know what will happen in September. But I am watching and ready.

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    1. Also the Greek word "ouranos", which we translate as "heaven", means both "sky" and spiritual "heaven" - depending on context. Considering the War in Heaven in verse 7 on involving the dragon, I wonder if perhaps there is a switch in meaning in verse 3 and 4. Just speculating.

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  8. Here's your dragon, and the child lifted onto the throne...
    https://youtu.be/d4EUJMKm3jg?t=1m45s

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  9. In the NASB version of Revelation you will find the word "like" 25 times as John tries to describe what he sees, but this word is not found in the first half of Revelation 12.

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  10. Lines are rapidly being drawn on REV12--it's reaching the point where some get it and some just don't, and those who don't are typically from the ranks of those who deny the biblical doctrine of the pre-tribulation Rapture. Color me surprised. And I don't remember who said it, but I agree wholeheartedly: a lot of the preachers and prophecy teachers who were falling all over themselves over the Blood Moons are now balking at this one. I think this is partly because some of them can't get past the fact that REV12 smacks of date-setting, no matter how hard we try not to cast it in that light.

    But I, like most of you, am convinced both are real, both are signs, and we'd better pay attention to everything God is doing. Just because nothing happened or happens on a certain day means zilch. Call it the two-minute warning if you will. God does things by His schedule, not ours.

    But it is obvious to those with ears to hear that the Almighty Mover and Shaker is moving and shaking, and believers throughout the body of Christ would be well advised to get the wax out of their ears. And those on the fence would do well to seek Him while there is still time.

    "O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusts in him."
    (Psalm 34:8)

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    1. Let's talk about date setting for a moment. If I think that the Lord will return soon and therefore spend my time pursuing holiness, sharing the gospel, helping the needy, and serving the Lord with my whole heart - well, if the Lord then does NOT return when I thought He might, I have lost nothing. Why would I regret my weeks or months of faithfulness?

      The problem arises when people quit their jobs, sell their homes, etc. This is foolish, for if it turns out you are wrong (and, honestly, every prediction so far HAS been wrong) you now have serious problems. Besides, when the Lord returns I want Him to find me at work, with my house in order and my job well-handled. I don't want Him to find me sitting on a hill doing absolutely nothing. Wouldn't you rather be caught working for the Lord?

      I think there is a lot of wisdom in learning to number our days, and living every day so that we are always watching and always ready for the Lord's return. After all, for all we know this particular day might be the last one we have - life is often unexpectedly cut short.

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    2. I totally agree with you and am doing the same. Also praying for everyone, myself included, to be ready and waiting, accepting the Lord as their savior and living in a way that the Lord will find acceptable when we're called home, whenever that may be. If I'm here on the Feast of Trumpets, I will be outside, listening for the trumpet. I pray that my 5 pets will be taken care of by someone they will love and who will love and take care of them as I would, if by chance they have to stay behind without me. There are horses in heaven (we'll ride them on our way back) so maybe there is a huge heavenly farm for them. I hope so! :)

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  11. In the spirit of Gary's and Scott's work, I also have wondered about the dragon. And like the first sign there is a culmination of support for the constalation Serpens just below Virgo's feet. Which I list..

    1. The constellation represents a serpent, not a dragon. Agreed, but am open, given Satan is also called a serpent.

    2. The Serpans constellation is at Virgo's feet as the Revelation passage states.

    3. The Serpans constellation is unique in being the only constellation divided. One half being the head and the other connected half being the tail. A note that Rev 12 speaks of both head and tail independently.

    4. In between the divided Serpans is another constalation of a man (sorry, due to iPad loosing comments, I can't go find it's name). Of note is often the man and Serpans constellations are shown and described together as the man wrestling with the serpant. This is very similar to scripture of Micheal wrestling with the serpant just before casting him down to the earth. In ancient myths, the man and serpant are considered equal in strength. In the myth, the serpent almost died (suffered a great wound?) but healed by another serpent remenesant of end time prophecy. Because of the healing the serpant is associated to both poison and medicine (pharmacia).

    5. Above the head of the Serpans constellation is the constellation Cronus Borrealis where Cronus means crown or halo. It has seven stars which could represent the seven crowns suggesting seven crowns may be one crown of seven stars. Hmmm...

    6. If crowns means stars, then it is just as likely seven heads may also represent the stars making up Serpans head constellation (more research needed).

    7. I do not see a representation of ten horns, but there are a cluster of stars around the head astronomically named as part of the Serpans constellation but not part of the lines normally drawn for the constellation. The Ser-Tau stars? (More research needed).

    8. Speculation: If accurate, the verse says the serpents tail swept stars down to the earth suggesting a possible meteor shower from that location following the birth in the first sign. Meteor showers are often named after constellations (why needs research) but I did run across a new light meteor shower being reported in Dec being named after Serpens. (periodic, has happened before, hence the new name after recen discovery).

    If the culmination of similarities above interest you into looking, I am curious of anything you find in support or debunk. We are looking for truth, not recognition by false innuendos or speculation. ;-)

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    1. I also assumed Constellation Serpens as part of the celestial Dragon. The other two being Hydra and Draco.

      This is mirrored on Earth by the nations falling under socialism/communism, associated with the color red -- Russia's Red Army, Mao's Red Book, the red dominating the Chinese flag, and so forth.

      For more on the Sept. 23 sign, I recommend recent comments at the Daily Crow. Also, do not automatically expect everything to occur exactly on Sept.23. It is a SIGN of current AND future events.

      Cheers.

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  12. For this sign to appear in the sky at the same time as the Feast of Trumpets (the rapture feast) is absolutely astounding! It has to mean something amazing is about to happen.

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    1. yes Cheryl,...truly*

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  13. If we're raising questions, there is one thing that's a bit odd. When I first learned about the Revelation 12 sign I was immensely excited and immediately checked my calendar. That's when I learned that the sign does NOT fall on the Festival of Trumpets; it misses it by a day or two. Since every other Biblical feast was fulfilled on the very day of that feast (such as the Crucifixion occurring on Passover), it seemed incredibly unlikely that this feast would be the one exception. Then there's the fact that yes, while Jupiter is in the womb for nine months, it exits well before the 23rd - and not on a feast day, either. The dates don't line up.

    And yet, as this post makes so clear, there is no other possible fulfillment of this sign. It has never appeared before since the creation of the world, and it's not going to appear again. There is only one possible constellation and set of planets and stars that can ever fulfill it, and Sept 23, 2017 is the only time it will happen. It's also clear from Revelation 12 that this sign clearly depicts the rapture of the Church.

    So what we have is a sign that clearly and unmistakably depicts the rapture, and which has never appeared before and will never appear again, falling on what looks like the wrong date. That's what gets me. If the sign fell on the feast day it would be very convincing, but it doesn't. Instead the sign seems to fall on something called "Shabbat Shuvah", the Sabbath of repentance. It makes me think we're working a puzzle but don't have all the pieces yet.

    Maybe this sign is actually aimed at Israel and is pointing them to their need for repentance. Perhaps the problem is not with the sign, but with our interpretation of it.

    I see the pieces, and they are certainly compelling, but I cannot figure out how to put them together.

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    1. You make some good points. I have a couple of thoughts:

      1. There is still ambiguity over when the FOT starts. Revelation 12 Sign watchers fall into two camps, those sticking with the common FOT date and those saying it will be the 23rd. It's true that there might be a very tiny sliver, just enough moon to see on the evening of the 20th or 21st, but consider that it is very likely the moon will not be sighted until the evening of the 22nd, since there is a two day window (20th or 21st). If the FOT begins on the evening of the 22nd, the FOT will end on the evening of the 23rd and the sign will transpire ON the FOT. Like you've said, we're only talking about a day or two here. A lot can happen.

      If you recall, in 2015 a massive sandstorm swept through Israel on the FOT, delaying the sighting of the new moon. Perhaps it was a precedent.

      2. Isaiah 66 seems pretty clear that the birth happens before the pain comes, yet the sign in its fullness in Revelation 12:1-2 includes the pain, so perhaps we need to put two and two together. Daniel Matson, Steve Sewell and others suggest the rapture may happen on 9/21 or 9/22 and the sign on 9/23 if for the Jews.


      3. The fulfillments happen directly on the feast days, but consider that the signs themselves may not. Various Scriptures say the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood, *before* the Day of the LORD... signs in the heavens happening on a different date then a fulfillment. The rapture could be perfectly fulfilled on the FOT, even if the sign happens a day later. A number of other significant Bible signs seem to have happened on non-feast days... withering of the fig tree, some of the signs during the Exodus, even aspects of the Star of Bethlehem if you follow Rick Larson's work.

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    2. Also, according to Torah Calendar, the new moon will definitely not occur until the evening of the 21st. That means the FOT, according to them, will end in the evening of Friday 9/22... that is only about 18 hours before the sign is high in the sky... less than a day.

      http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y2017M7

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    3. Thanks, Gary - that is extremely helpful. It makes a lot of sense.

      One additional point that makes me laugh is that 9/21/17 happens to be the United Nations' official World Peace Day (http://internationaldayofpeace.org/). 1 Thes 5:3 tells us that when the world is saying "peace and safety", sudden destruction will come upon them. If there was any day of the year the whole world was saying "peace and safety", it's hard to beat World Peace Day. I am not offering this as proof of anything but it's interesting timing.

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    4. Dear Jonathan, please check out the website www.watchfortheday.org to get more information on the date of 9/21/17 at 6 p.m. Jerusalem time (yom teruah Trumpets). You are right, the 23rd of September is already a sign for the Jews as their New year begins and feast of Trumpets already over. Rapture must occur earlier. Blessings! http://watchfortheday.org/definingthenewmoon.html

      Delete
  14. While looking at this, I found something else interesting. 2017 is the only year where the FOT falls on the Fall Equinox at least in the years 2010 to 2020.

    ReplyDelete

  15. Just to clarify, I really, really want this sign to be TRUE
    and hope it does point to the rapture…. That being said, there are a few items
    that seem to be inconsistent (at least in my mind) which I would like to bring
    before the group for some discussion on.

    A spectacular sign appeared in the sky: a woman dressed with the sun, who had the moon under her feet and a victor’s crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out from her labor pains, the agony of giving birth.

    As people already have pointed out – 1) the dressed with the
    Sun 2) Moon under feet 3) Twelve Stars Crowning Head – all occur Sept. 23, 2017
    – these three facts are all date specific – meaning they only become in
    alignment on that DAY!

    Verse two makes clear – she is pregnant and in labor pains,
    with agony of giving birth….

    The software shows – Jupiter exiting the “womb” (or birthing
    if you will) on September 9th – thirteen days BEFORE the identifying
    alignment. In other words – the Birth has already occurred BEFORE the alignment which identifies her actually occurs.

    At the very least; it should make one pause and rethink why
    the “birth” is occurring BEFORE the identifying signs.

    The second inconsistency (as already noted in the
    article) is that the “dragon sign” and it’s actions seem to be taking place BEFORE the actual BIRTH. So whatever that second sign is supposed to represent – it needs to occur Before the BIRTH event. The Birth event is happening September 9th…..

    The third inconsistency is that the “catching up” – happens immediately
    after the Birth – which again is happening at the 9th.

    Anyone want to help explain away these inconsistent items?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'd love for others to chime in, because I can only speculate, but I think the word you mentioned many times is the key word: "BEFORE".

      Isaiah 66:

      “Before she goes into labor,
      she gives birth;
      before the pains come upon her,
      she delivers a son.
      8 Who has ever heard of such things?
      Who has ever seen things like this?

      We know that John wants to point his readers from Rev. 12 to Isaiah 66 because of the use of the Greek "huion arsen". Consider what Isaiah is saying here in chapter 66. It is something that has never happened before - birth BEFORE labor. Labor pains are mentioned in Rev. 12:1-2, yet a holy nation has already been born to the woman according to Isaiah 66 (cross-reference with 1 Peter 2:9).

      Also, bear in mind the womb may be kind of ambiguous. We're making a somewhat subjective determination in regards to what constitutes "the womb". This is why interpretations vary from when Jupiter entered the womb (Nov/Dec 2016).

      Just my 2 cents.

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    2. This is something I've wondered about as well - I had a similar question. This site has the best answer I've seen (note that I'm not connected with this author in any way):

      http://watchfortheday.org/manchild.html

      If the woman is giving birth to the Church, it makes perfect sense that the pain would happen after the birth and not before. The Church, after all, avoids the pain of the Tribulation. The pain comes after the Rapture, as Israel must suffer through the Tribulation and be born again/saved at its end.

      I think 9/21 - 9/23 has more going for it. But I strongly suggest being ready now, and being watchful every day that passes. According to Google 150,000 people die every day, and we have no guarantee that we will not be one of them. Don't wait until some future date to prepare your soul to meet God. Now is the day of salvation.

      Delete
    3. "I think 9/21 - 9/23 has more going for it. But I strongly suggest being ready now, and being watchful every day that passes. According to Google 150,000 people die every day, and we have no guarantee that we will not be one of them. Don't wait until some future date to prepare your soul to meet God. Now is the day of salvation."

      Yes! Completely agree. We are living on borrowed time and He could come at any time.

      "This site has the best answer I've seen (note that I'm not connected with this author in any way):"

      Daniel Matson is the man. Very diligent and studious - I think he is spot on.

      Delete
    4. Regarding Rev12,3 the "dragon": couldn't it be the same with the " woman" being a constellation fixed in heaven combined with a Wanderung star to fulfil at a certain date? So if Jupiter stands for the king planet = Jesus Christ / body of church then why not Planet X be the one who brings sudden destruction? I have watched some serious Videos on it and am quite convinced that this is the case. This heavenly body consists of (red) iron oxide, has 7 stars in an own solar system around with "Wings" and a large "fail" of Meteor debris, being observed by ancient cultures but only since 2,000 years more often and bringing much disturbance on earth magnetic field. The verse from John 12,31 came to my mind when putting all these pieces together. Plus the fact that Planet X's transit and partly collision with Jupiter (at the "heel" part) will start great trouble in October 2017 (apparently, the church will then be safe in heaven). The debris field from this collision will reach earth orbit around 2-4 years later = middle of tribulation period. Fits perfectly everything. Blessings!

      Delete
    5. Annabel - wow. Good points about Planet X. As soon as I read it I thought "I should have thought of that!" Thanks for pointing that out. Of course not sure it fits all points but it is good and worth considering. There are so many voices, dreams, visions and words out there. Some say Planet X is the destroyer but attribute its destructive work as an instrument of God's judgment and not to the devil. It is curious to picture Jupiter colliding with X (or some part of its system) then to read about war in heaven. Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his. Thanks for bringing this out! Gregg

      Delete
  16. Whoa!,...good one annabel

    ReplyDelete
  17. Well you did ''chime'' in my dear,....whoo weee! annabel, keep on chimin' !!!

    ReplyDelete
  18. the ''Rescue of the Bride'' video series on you tube is something to see and contemplate,...there is reading as well in connection w/ the vids as you will see, its amazing! blessings, tony in vt.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Tony, thank you for your kind response. Sorry I just popped in here like that. ;-) Thank you as well for the video hint, I watched the first but it talked about a 2-phase rescue/rapture which is not biblical. Those left behind will not be saved as they will believe the antichrist lies from 1 Thess 2,10-12. My guess here is some Planet X influence too because of the massive EMP impact on human brains (if not protected). I try to see every natural event as expressed spiritually in the bible and vice versa. God has revealed His plan everywhere in the realm of His dwelling (= the heavens) and He reveals it to those who believe Him in every detail. I just try to combine information now but it makes perfect sense with Luke 21,25-26 too. People can see with naked eye now what is coming towards earth. But they cannot interpret it without faith in Jesus Christ nor escape. As well, there are hints to Rev15-sign being the Pleiades coming exactly 7 years after this on Yom Kippur 2024, isnt that miraculous? I am glad the LORD showed me this blog in time like all the other information, Blessings to you all and stay firm in His word! Seeya :-)

      Delete
    2. Sorry Tony I mean of course 2 Thessalonians... Typing error. ;-)

      Delete
  19. Our Father's Love is calling to us ALL....as the Ultimate Shalom approaches!Our redemption draws nigh!!! Thanks for your response Annabel, Blessings

    ReplyDelete
  20. Our Fathers Love is calling to us ALL,...Keep the Vision! Our redemption draws nigh! Thanks for responding Annabel, The Ultimate Shalom of Wonderful Restoration approaches, be Blessed, tony in vt.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Isn't Feast of Trumpets a two day festival? So, if its on 9/21 and 9/22 does't that mean its starts sundown 9/21 to sundown 9/22 (Day 1), and sundown 9/22 to sundown 9/23 (Day 2)? Therefore, even if Feast of Trumpets starts on 9/21 (at sundown), the Rev 12:1,2 sign on 9/23 (before sundown) still occurs on Feast of Trumpets?

    ReplyDelete
  22. I have enjoyed following the 'Revelation 12 Sign' posts and updates. I especially enjoy the thought provoking comments. I believe our Heavenly Father uses signs such as this to awaken His followers. It renews our excitement for what He has in store for His true and faithful ones. Psalm 19 and Luke 21:25-28 are just two of the reasons I love gazing at the sky. We are to be about His business as we wait for the fulfillment of His Word. Maranatha!

    ReplyDelete
  23. All of this is literally insane. What a tragedy to drag our faith through the mud like this. It is embarrassing.

    ReplyDelete


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