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Rapture Deception or Revelation? Unveiling the Mystery of Harpazo Joe



We've come full circle. 


Of the twelve constellations that coincide with our twelve-month calendar, there is only one that depicts a woman in labor. And there is only one time of year when the sun spotlights this stellar configuration of the child-bearing virgin (Isa. 7:14; Rev. 12:1–2).


On the Hebrew calendar, it's both an end and a beginning. In ancient Rome, it was the seventh month, a time of fulfillment and completion. For the Western world today, it's the ninth month—a time of closure and judgment. At summer's end, we find ourselves once again in a season of reckoning and reaping. And come harvest time, there will be one of two reactions: either rejoicing or weeping (Prov. 10:5; Jer. 8:20).


Around this time five years ago (September 7, 2017), we published an article here at Unsealed called "Birthday Break-away: The Perez Prophecy and the Male-Child of Revelation 12:5." The discovery of the Genesis 38 prefiguring of the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church came about as a result of my interaction with another brother in Christ (Brad of Rev12 Daily); I was inspired to pursue uncharted territory based on our previous collaboration. Likewise, the latest discovery unveiled in this current post has come about as the result of prior fellowship—it started as a thought planted in the mind that germinated and blossomed into significant revelation after further prayer and research (I can testify to the importance of Prov. 27:17)!


In short, back on July 17, 2022, Gary and I were having an in-person, lengthy discussion about Bible prophecy (ha, imagine that). As I typically do when I'm able to chat one-on-one with my brother from another mother (our Heavenly Zion mother, to be precise; Gal. 4:26), I was bouncing off ideas for future articles and/or videos. I don't recall all the details, but at one point we were talking about the benefits of Bible software. I had been gifted with specialized Bible software upon graduating from Dallas Seminary back in 2015, and it has definitely been put to good use.


For example, Gary and I recorded a video recently on Rapture typology in the Old Testament, and I used Bible software to dig deeper into Judges 21. In the Greek translation of the last chapter of Judges, the word harpazo (Strong's 726) is used in reference to the act of "snatching away" brides (Jdg. 21:21, LXX). Thus, the idea of a "bride" being harpazoed (i.e. "raptured") is not a novel concept when we arrive at New Testament revelation. There is already typology, a precedent, and a pattern established in the Old Testament that undergirds the biblical doctrine of the Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture of Christ's Bride (the Church). Moreover, this momentous mystery and climactic harpazo event at the end of the age is further disclosed and developed in the New Testament by apostles such as Paul and John.


Somewhere in our discussion about Bible software, Gary planted a seed. At the time, it was more of a suggestion: Hey, Jeff, why don't you look up all of the uses of harpazo in the Greek Old Testament?


Hmmm...


Now there's a thought. Ok, thanks Gary!


After a couple of months have passed and with a sprained ankle to boot, I'm finally ready to present another compelling discovery that upholds our strong conviction that the promise of Revelation 12:5 refers to the Pretribulation Resurrection and Rapture of Christ and His Body.



Snatching Away and Seizing Prey


The verb harpazo ("to seize by force, snatch away, pluck, etc.") is found a total of 33 times in the Greek Old Testament. However, there are 37 total occurrences, if you include a section of 1 Esdras (i.e. Ezra) not found in the Masoretic text and the non-canonical books of Judith, Baruch, and Wisdom of Solomon (for the use of harpazo in these texts, see 1 Esdras 4:24; Judith 16:9; Baruch 4:26; and Wisdom of Solomon 4:11).


In several instances, harpazo has the nuanced meaning of robbery or theft (i.e. "a snatching away"). For example, see Lev. 5:23; 19:13; Deut. 28:31; Jdgs. 21:21; Ps. 69:4; Job 20:19; 24:2, 9, 19; Isa. 10:2; and Ezek. 18:7, 12, 16, 18.


However, the lion's share (pun intended) of harpazo in the Greek Old Testament occurs in contexts where a lion or wolf is described as "seizing" its prey and taking it away by force (used often as a figure of speech depicting the actions of both God and man). For example, see Ps. 7:2; Ps. 10:9 (x2); Ps. 22:13; Ps. 50:22; Ps. 104:21; Hos. 5:14; 6:1; Amos 3:4; Mic. 5:8; Nah. 2:12; Ezek. 19:3, 6; 22:25, 27.


In many relevant harpazo texts, the God of Israel (YHWH) is portrayed as a lion who comes out of His den to seize His prey. Gulp! And in a couple of significant end-time passages, God is hunting down His own people in judgment. Thus, for many of us (i.e. believers in the Pretribulation Harpazo of the Church), the term harpazo takes us to a happy place. Conversely, for the wayward and hardened remnant of Israel, the idea of an end-of-days harpazo has an altogether different ring to it. It sounds utterly terrifying:



For I [am] as a lion to Ephraim, || And as a young lion to the house of Judah, I tear [harpazo] and go, || I carry away, and there is no deliverer. I go—I return to My place, || Until they are desolate and have sought My face. In their distress they seek Me speedily! (Hos. 5:14–15, LSV).



The very next chapter of Hosea confirms that, for Israel, harpazo means harsh judgment. However, after the 7-year Tribulation has run its course, the harm of God's harpazo turns into healing and restoration:



In their affliction they will seek me early, saying: Let us go, and return to the Lord our God; for he has torn [harpazoed] and will heal us; he will smite and bind us up. After two days he will heal us: in the third day we shall arise, and live before him, and shall know him (Hos. 6:1–2, Brenton Septuagint Translation).

 


A brief survey of the usage of harpazo in the Greek Old Testament shows that the term broadly represents a violent snatching away and seizure of both people and property. It is often used negatively in contexts of judgment against Israel. Therefore, we can infer based on Old Testament usage that "the Rapture" (God's harpazo) is a form of judgment against His own people. However, when we get to New Testament revelation, the term takes on a whole new meaning:



...[T]he LORD Himself, with a shout, with the voice of a chief-messenger, and with the trumpet of God, will come down from Heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are living, who are remaining over, will be snatched up [harpazoed] together with them in [the] clouds to meet the LORD in [the] air, and so we will always be with the LORD; so, then, comfort one another with these words (1 Thess. 4:16–18, LSV).

 


Hmmm...very interesting.


Instead of evoking terror and dread, Paul reveals that God's harpazo has now turned into a means of comfort. In fact, the Lord Jesus, God-in-the-flesh and the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:9; Rev. 5:5) gives an emphatic promise to His sheep that no one will be able to harpazo them out of his hand or the Father's hand:



...[T]he hired worker, and not being a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholds the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees; and the wolf snatches [harpazoes] them, and scatters the sheep...My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give continuous life to them, and they will not perish—throughout the age, and no one will snatch [harpazo] them out of My hand; My Father, who has given to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch [harpazo] out of the hand of My Father (Jn. 10:12, 28–29, LSV).


 

In addition to this three-fold occurrence in chapter 10 of his gospel, the apostle John uses harpazo one last time in the last book of the Bible. In fact, it is the last mention of harpazo in all of Scripture:



...[T]he dragon stood before the woman who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, he may devour her child; and she brought forth a male son, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and her child was snatched up [harpazoed] to God and to His throne (Rev. 12:4–5, LSV).


 

The drastic turn from an overly negative connotation in the Old Testament to an overly positive association in the New suggests that "the Rapture" (God's harpazo) affects Israel and the Church in different ways. However, for this to hold true, the Rapture of the Church would have to take place prior to and/or be a sudden removal from the horrific search, seizure, and ravaging of Jacob during his time of trouble.


Hold that thought. As we dig deeper, I think you'll appreciate the big reveal of this article. And while you might be familiar with the last use of harpazo in Scripture, have you ever heard of the first?


I hear Gary's voice echo again: Hey, Jeff, why don't you look up all the uses of harpazo in the Old Testament?


All right, get ready for this one. Let's head on back to the beginning...



Rapture Deception or Rapture Revelation?


As many of you know, it's common for study Bibles and commentaries to cite Genesis 37 as a cross-reference to John's vision of the sun, moon, and twelve stars in Revelation 12:1–2. This is reasonable, because the only other mention of the precise number of heavenly luminaries (sun, moon, and an implied twelve stars) occurs in Genesis 37:9. Additionally, many of you already know that Joseph is a major type of Jesus, especially his rejection by his brothers, his "resurrection" from the pit, and his exaltation to the right hand of the supreme ruler of the most powerful kingdom at the time.


Yes, Genesis 37 provides the thematic backdrop to the opening scenes of Revelation 12. However, Revelation 12 is not a mere retelling of events in the life of Joseph or Jesus. No, as we've shown in a number of Unsealed studies, Revelation 12:1–5 speaks of events leading up to the Resurrection and Rapture of the Completed Christ (Head + Body).


Much credit goes to Dr. Michael Svigel of Dallas Seminary. Though I did not have him as a professor, I stumbled upon his article "What Child is This?" during my final semester before graduation (it was posted on a bulletin board outside the Systematic Theology office). Through his careful research, he successfully explains why Revelation 12:5, the primary proof-text for the Pre-Trib Rapture, fell out of favor with modern evangelicals (see also Gary's, "Conservative Scholars Agree: The Male Child is the Church"). 


Also, in a previous study, Svigel provides the lexical basis for the Pretribulation Rapture in Revelation 12. The birth of the son, a male, in Rev. 12:5 connects directly to Isaiah 66:7 via the Greek hyperlink, arsen (neuter form of the Greek word arren). A closer inspection of Isaiah 66:7 shows that this miraculous "birth" takes place before the woman goes into labor (i.e. the future 7-year Tribulation period). Isaiah 66:8 further confirms that "the male" is not one man (i.e. Jesus), but one nation born suddenly in a single day. When you compare Isa. 65:1, Deut. 32:21, and Rom. 10:19-20, the "male" (arsen) and "nation" (ethnos) born miraculously all at once before the woman goes into labor is none other than the Gentile-dominant body of Christ (i.e. the Church).


Now then, what about that first mention of harpazo in Scripture? Well, it may come as no surprise, but the first mention of harpazo in the Greek Old Testament is found in Genesis 37:



And they sent off the many-colored tunic, and they brought it in to their father and said, "We found this. Observe if it is the tunic of your son or not." And he observed it and said, "It is the tunic of my son; an evil beast devoured him; a beast carried off [harpazoed] Joseph." Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth around his waist, and he was mourning his son [a number of days]. All his sons and daughters gathered together and came to comfort him, and he did not wish to be comforted, saying, "I will go down to my son mourning into Hades." And his father mourned him (Gen. 37:32–35, The Lexham English Septuagint).



And get this: Just as Revelation 12:5 connects directly to Isaiah 66:7 via the Greek hyperlink arsen ("a male"), so also Revelation 12:4–5 connects directly to Genesis 37:33 by way of not one, but a total of THREE Greek hyperlinks: huios ("son"); katesthio ("to eat up, devour"); and harpazo ("to seize, snatch away, rapture").


Look at the Greek translation of Genesis 37:33 again:



And he observed it and said, "It is the tunic of my son [huios]; an evil beast devoured [katesthio] him; a beast carried off [harpazo] Joseph."


 

Now compare it with the Greek translation of Revelation 12:4–5:



...[A]nd the dragon stood before the woman who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, he may devour [katesthio] her child; and she brought forth a male son [huios], who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and her child was snatched up [harpazoed] to God and to His throne (LSV).



It may take a while for the significance of this connection to sink in...but, by all means, let it sink in!


Perhaps a recap of the Genesis 37 storyline will help: Joseph, the favored son and firstborn of Rachel (Jacob's favored wife), is first described as tending sheep. Moreover, he is a shepherd (compare with Revelation 12:5, "...he will rule [literally, in Greek, poimaino"to shepherd"] all nations..."), and the text of Genesis 37:2 specifically mentions that he is "17" years of age (17 represents victory, or resurrection).


We are informed that Joseph is favored by his father, because he was born later in his father's life (Gen. 37:3). Jacob shows his love for Joseph by giving him a special tunic, which likely signifies his royal status or possibly his future role as the leader of his family. Consequently, Joseph's brothers hate him and will not make peace with him (Gen. 37:4). Next, Joseph has two dreams about ruling over his family, which surprisingly includes Jacob/Israel (Gen. 37:5–10). Note: the stellar alignment of Rev 12:1–2 corresponds to Joseph's dream and subsequent struggle to eventually become the ruler over Jacob and his brothers. The apostle Paul applies the same Genesis 37 template in Rom. 10:17–19, where he writes about signs in the heavens (cf. Ps. 19:1–2) in conjunction with Israel's jealousy of the Church.


Genesis 37:12–28 details the drama, deception, and conspiracy to get rid of Joseph once and for all. The father sends his favored son to bring back a report on his brothers (remind you of anyone? see Mk. 12:1–12). The brothers have finally had enough of their brother, the dreamer, and so they plot to kill him. Reuben tries to intercede to save Joseph and return him to Jacob, but to no avail. Joseph is thrown into a pit, and apart from Reuben's knowledge, Judah sells Joseph to Midianite traders headed for Egypt.


Reuben's response in Gen. 37:29–30 further contributes to the immense Rapture typology embedded within the Joseph narrative. As the true firstborn and chief representative of the 12 sons of Jacob, Reuben is a type of the future remnant of Israel and foreshadows the reaction of those left behind right after the harpazo of the Church:



Now Reuben returned to the pit, and behold, Joseph was not in the pit; so he tore his garments. He returned to his brothers and said, "The boy is not there; as for me, where am I to go?" (NASB).



The body of Joseph is missing! Did he get harpazoed? Reuben seems to think so. And notice what he and a few of the other sons of Israel do after they can't find Joseph's body:



So they took Joseph’s tunic, and slaughtered a male goat [Heb. satyr], and dipped the tunic in the blood. They sent the multicolored tunic and brought it to their father and said, "We found this; please examine it to see whether it is your son’s tunic or not..." (Gen. 37:31-32, NASB).



As a substitute for Joseph's missing and "raptured" body, a male goat is slain and the royal, blood-stained garment is brought back to the father (see goat sacrifices + atonement in Lev. 16). Likewise, after the Rapture of the Church, Israel will start sacrificing the blood of bulls and goats again (Dan. 9:27; Isa. 66:1–3; Heb. 9:11–14; Rev. 11:1–2). This leads us back to Genesis 37:33, our main text that corresponds to Revelation 12:4–5: The shocked and bewildered patriarch prophesies, "...this is the tunic of my son, an evil beast devoured him, a beast seized him."


Whatever happened to Harpazo Joe? Where did he go?


Does anybody know?


For Reuben, Jacob, and anyone else who can't see behind the veil, this Genesis 37 mystery is a Rapture deception. However, for alert believers today who hear what the Spirit is saying, the mystery of Harpazo Joe is a Rapture revelation.



Feast or Famine?


Right after the hidden Rapture verse of Genesis 37:33, we find yet another pattern that reinforces the biblical chronology of end-time events (first, Rapture of the Church, then Jacob's Trouble):



Then Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him (Gen. 37:34–35, ESV).



Genesis 37:34–35 prefigures Jacob's trouble in literal fashion (cf. Jer. 30:7). Jacob/Israel refuses to be comforted and instead mourns for his beloved son who has been "slain" (cf. Zech. 12:10). The very next chapter, Gen. 38, contains the Judah/Tamar narrative with another direct link to the ultimate Son of promise via the breakaway birthday of Perez (a surprising and sudden birth from the womb that also prefigures the Rapture of the Church).


And here is the dramatic irony in all of the details and clues surrounding the curious case of Harpazo Joe:


We, the readers of the biblical text, know that Joseph, the favored son, does not actually get harpazoed and devoured by an evil beast as depicted by Reuben's misconception and Jacob's misguided affirmation. However, the "Rapture deception" in the narrative serves the greater purpose of the Author of Scripture (the Holy Spirit) and supports the true biblical doctrine of a "Rapture revelation," a.k.a. the Pretribulation Harpazo of the Son, the Male (Child), of Revelation 12:5. 


Like Joseph, the Body of Christ will not be devoured by the dragon or even contend with the Beast (Grk. therion) of Revelation 13. Just as Jesus says in John 10, no one will harpazo His sheep out of the Father's hand. On the contrary, the Father will harpazo the Body of Christ and hide the male (child) away from the eyes of Israel and the rest of the world.


When you hear what the Spirit is saying in Genesis 37 and Revelation 12, other biblical narratives begin to fall into place. For example, note the striking Joseph/Jesus/Body of Christ connections that are distilled into a single verse of Scripture:



Therefore He shall give them up until the time when she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest of his brothers shall return to the people of Israel (Micah 5:3, ESV).



Likewise, in another thematic backdrop to Revelation 12, look at the amazing parallels in Matthew 2:13–15 to the Joseph narrative. Note the "Harpazo Joe" typology of the favored son (a male), who escapes a potential devourer by being taken and hidden away in Egypt:



Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him." And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son..." (ESV)

 


Where will you be on the day of the Rapture, when God raises the dead and harpazoes living believers in the Body of Christ? 


Will you be feasting with the greater Joseph and His Gentile Bride high up in the greater "Egypt" of God's heavenly city? Or, are you currently headed for the coming 7-year famine along with the rest of the wayward sons of Jacob?


If you are uncertain of your destiny in the least, do not delay and be in the dark any longer. Believe the good news today!


As for the rest of my brothers and sisters in Christ, I'll be seeing you at the banquet real soon!

Post A Comment

46 comments:

  1. Great stuff, Jeff. Another very compelling argument for a pre-70th week rapture. I just preached a message on Sunday of 7 scriptural examples supporting a pre-trib harpazo. Your article could have been an excellent 8th. My hope was that the teaching the Lord gave me would be a resource for the body to help those struggling in their ability to see that the rapture is before the 70th week, while encouraging the faith of those who already believe it. I think it would be a blessing to you. Maranatha!!!
    https://youtu.be/wxgOjNVGM4k

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    1. Amen, Watchman 35. Amen!

      I'll second that compelling remark. Brilliantly written and laid-out, Jeff! An excellent dive into the harpazo. Connections and repeated patterns are a very Jewish trait in Scripture and prophecy. Road signs that remind and point the way. God is faithful.

      Thank you for the link!

      Keep the Faith!!

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    2. What came to mind is
      Gen 50:20... but as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

      Is that not an appropriate link also?
      Joseph (church), favored by his father, clothed in a "new garment" that his brothers(evil) intend to kill ...like the dragon (evil)standing before the "male child" (church) with the intention to kill but God turns it to good..."to save much people alive."

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    3. on spot, beautiful * ty!

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    4. Hi Rich. Hope you and your family are doing well. ๐ŸŽตRemember when the Lord was God, protected by amazing grace. Didn't have a care in the world, so sure that he never turn His face. But happily ever after fails when we reject His Truth for fairy tales. Evolution has prevailed in classrooms filled with lies. But I know a place where we can go, where sin is washed away. The nation falls but there's still time for one more soul to save..." Wounded warrior occupying until He comes. Maranatha!!!

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    5. Hi Ron, I hope you've been well. Our family is well if not very busy as usual. Looking to the season upon us with great hope and anticipation!

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    6. The global phenomenon coming soon - the rapture - Jesus in the clouds -

      https://youtu.be/3iLQsMJqFto

      Interesting video about the Disney movie - Avatar - coming back - on Sept 23rd
      and it is being called a "Global Phenomenon" - and what does Avatar mean?

      Great Article Jeff with some interesting stuff...one of your best.

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  2. Great read Jeff, I thank you for your work. Is the LSV derived from the LXX or MT in the old testament?

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    1. Hi TP, thanks for the question! I'll jump in here. The LSV is primarily based on the MT, although preferred readings from the LXX are included.

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    2. Thanks Gary, I appreciate the answer. I don't know if anyone wants to go down a rabbit hole; if not, don't bother--I understand. Any thoughts on why we would be willing to believe (rightly) the types and rapture references sourced by the LXX if so very many base everything else on the Masoretic text? I am not trying to trap anyone, it is a legitimate question. Legitimate as many will believe (I think wrongly) in the chronology and timeline that is presented in the Masoretic Text. As some here will know, most every western translation in the English that the church follows (whether catholic or protestant) is based on the Masoretic text--if you have found a timeline or chart it has been from the Masoretic text, Larkin et al. If someone engages in even cursory textual criticism it becomes clear that the Masoretic text is very different in key areas from the LXX and it is the LXX, the translation of the 70 which we know as the Greek Septuagint that is the older text (by far). I AM NOT trying to be the opposite of KJV only (LXX Only I am not); I think God has given us a Word that does not return void and a Word that even the gates of Hell shall not overcome! I also believe that Jesus Himself saves by His Grace through our faith, not of works, yet a gift from God so that no one can boast. I believe His salvation message has worked through each and every translation from various manuscripts (as long as that translation teaches salvation through Jesus alone correctly) so I firmly believe that being berean means studying multiple manuscripts, this makes textual criticism valuable because there is much to glean and God has allowed them all to exist even though satan would work in the midst to try and destroy. I believe many of you think this way, we go over things like a comb in the desert in a spaceballs movie :) We do this because we want to know the truth, we want to know Jesus! So, I say this to state that I do keep the main thing the main thing: Jesus is God, I believe Him, He saves me. He saves you. We are brothers and sisters in Christ! However, I wonder why we are pulling from the LXX for rapture typology (when the same word references in the Greek do not conveniently exist in the Masoretic text version of the Hebrew it would seem); yet so many don't question what else the LXX has to say about the timeline and various places that the LXX shows Jesus as the Messiah as the Masoretic text seemingly tries to delete Him from the text in their version because they don't want Him to be Messiah. The very Masoretic Text we get our KJV, ESV, NASB, etc. when you learn about and follow the translation stream. This is a quick summary the textual critics mostly know about, not trying to get into the weeds. Yet, that is why I asked. Douglas Woodward, The Patterns of Evidence series and there many scholars featured, and many others have covered much of this. I encourage discussion. If none comes that is ok. I welcome people to pursue this in their own light as a Berean; Rebooting the Bible by Douglas Woodward is a good place to start as he does the research for you and synthesizes the main players into a 2 volume book; yet you could check into some of the other patterns of evidence guys like David Rohl and Douglas Petrovich. I name drop so that people not in the know don't think I am going off wandering in isolation; there are many scholars who have done that before me. My hope is that my research gets stopped short as we are all snatched up together in the rapture of the Church to meet our glorious Savior Jesus the Christ in the air! Yet, if the Lord tarries I would suggest that working deeper into the LXX brings forward new connections that may illuminate us all; just as Jeff has brought light for us today! Blessing to you all :)

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    3. I would like to hear Gary and Jeff’s thoughts on this. I recently learned of the differences in the LXX and the Masoretic text from Barry Setterfield (barrysetterfield.org). In particular the age at which the patriarchs had their son in the genealogical line.

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    4. Barry and his wife Helen have excellent resources and their research on the LXX and Rabbi Akiba are very interesting. Contrast Barry's observations with Ken Johnson's. Some interesting differences offer research opportunities that could be interesting in themselves.

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    5. Barry Setterfield is great. Ken Johnson has been someone I have learned from for years. This is when conversation online gets hard as I do not want to bash or destroy anyone. Truth is truth however and needs to be pursued through the word of God. With all do respect to him, his last video about the LXX being different than the Masoretic text is eisegetical. I tried giving proper commentary and and analysis but the comment is too long, the forum says, it came to about page and a half in Word and I saved it. If anyone wants that we can meet by facebook messenger perhaps. The short summary is Johnson's use of Jasher, which is flat out wrong. He makes a statement about the LXX which is not true, I can prove it because there is no Jasher reference in the LXX. So the very video Johnson used to show the MT is the text to follow is wrong because the evidence in the translation stream he uses is factually wrong. No disrespect intended; yet it is as easy as reading words on a page. What he claims is there in the LXX is literally missing...not there.

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    6. Our Old Testament and Rabbi Akiba - Barry Setterfield

      Quoting, GSR Updates YT,

      The Dead Sea Scrolls - these texts are from the Old Testament, or Tanakh as it is called in Hebrew. We accept that the original writings were indeed Divinely inspired. But what happened after that? This session traces some key events in Bible translation.


      Ken Johnson points out that extra-Biblical sources support the Masoretic text and that the LXX genealogy of (Genesis 5) would not allow certain relationships indicated in the Masoretic. This is an avenue I have set aside for modeling and study but have yet to perform.

      I suspect that these topics may have something to do with the dating issues Rick Larson uncovered related to Josephus when he was researching the Bethlehem Star. The subject is discussed in his video,

      The Star of Bethlehem.

      Happy hunting!

      PR

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    7. Hello, TP!

      This is why I have been a broken record about digging on these things for oneself. Both Barry and Ken are approachable and avail themselves online via livestreams and/or email. I have enjoyed conversing with both over the years on questions regarding my and their research.

      I honestly believe we are in the search for the same thing. Each coming from a different direction, myself included. As long as we are in search of the same Biblical truth and approach that in humility we're on the right path. Both Barry and Ken maintain the Divinity of Christ and preach the good news. Just as I (as well as others here) may be off from time-to-time; so to is it with them.

      The late Chuck Missler used to put it this way, when you seen conflicting accounts or data in the text there is more to it than meets the eye. I agree.

      God has given us the desire to seek Him in study and research. Some more than others. Spirit lead us in that quest to know God through every means He puts before us.

      As it is written,

      2 It is the glory of God to
      conceal things, but the
      glory of kings is to search
      things out

      (Proverbs 25:2 ESV)


      Happy hunting!

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    8. Hey TP! It's a fascinating topic, I would argue probably not resolvable here. Lots of scholarship on both sides of the debate. As I mentioned before, some LXX readings are preferred and are used in the LSV. The LSV also includes the LXX Genesis chronologies set next to the standard MT chronology, which is a first in Bible translation.

      A few brief points are useful when chewing on this topic:

      1. Lots of things are stated online as fact and spread around widely enough that they become unchecked (often faulty) assumptions. Some examples of things that are factually false, but yet are still routinely shared around: Constantine invented the Trinity; the NT canon was decided at Nicaea; the whole OT was translated to Greek in the third century BC; the MT was purely the result of a conspiracy by Rabbi Akiva; etc. Especially when it comes to the OT textual history and transmission (MT, LXX, Samaritan Pentateuch, OT Peshitta, Vetus Latina, Vulgate), things are quite a bit more nuanced.

      2. Only the first five books of the OT were translated into Greek in the 3rd century BC. The others came later—some think much later.

      3. The Septuagint we have today ("extant") comes from circa 3rd - 4th centuries AD. Not much different than the MT. However, the Septuagint in use at the time of Christ is regarded to have been substantially revised around the time of Origen (2nd - 3rd centuries AD), such that we don't actually know what the 1st century LXX looked like. It's plausible that the 1st century LXX adhered much more closely to the MT. One of the biggest issues with accepting the extant LXX as a whole is that it contains a number of internal inconsistencies (link toward the bottom has a few examples).

      4. Early Christians debated MT vs LXX as well (e.g., Jerome vs. Augustine). Jerome's argument was that since the OT was originally written in Hebrew, a translation should be based on the Hebrew. Augustine argued both the Hebrew and Greek were inspired. This is why the Vulgate from the 3rd - 4th centuries AD closely mirrors the MT (including the Genesis chronologies).

      5. It is widely stated that the NT quotes from the Septuagint over the MT. This would be *partly* false. While the NT does quote from the LXX *more often*, it also often quotes from a Hebrew text like the MT, sometimes instead of the Septuagint. So rather than the NT upholding the exclusive authority of the LXX, it actually pays homage to both texts.*

      *Important note: probably the majority of OT quotes found in the NT are actually allusions or paraphrastic; in other words, the NT authors were not trying to match either the LXX or MT verbatim, but were crafting the OT thoughts in a new (and still very much inspired) way, that often matched neither the MT or LXX. So the argument that the LXX is quoted more thus is the "right" translation, is kind of a faulty conclusion. The NT was written in Greek, so quotes are more often from the Greek text that the NT audience was reading, but does so often loosely, retaining the meaning, but not necessarily the exact wording.

      6. When it comes to Bible translation differences (e.g., LXX vs MT; or Critical/Eclectic text vs Majority/TR), a hugely important fact is often forgotten in the debate: some 80–95% of textual differences and variants are classified as untranslatable. In other words, minor Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek spelling differences, word order, etc, that don't translate to the target language (e.g, English, Spanish, etc).

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    9. 7. In reality, the OT textual traditions form a Venn diagram where the LXX agrees with the MT in places, but disagrees with the DSS or SP in places. Conversely, the MT agrees with the SP and syrp (Peshitta) in places where the LXX disagrees, and sometimes the LXX matches the others, but not the MT. The closest match would probably be between the MT and V (Vulgate), the most widely used OT bases throughout Church history.

      8. OT was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic, not Greek. Now this doesn't immediately disqualify the LXX (some argue the LXX is a translation of older Hebrew texts than what the MT was translated from), but it's important to note that in terms of original, autographic, inerrant inspiration, the LXX is not the original God-breathed version.

      9. The LXX we have extant is translated along a broad spectrum from word-to-word to paraphrastic. This differs considerably from the MT, SP, V, etc. In other words, some books and passages in the LXX are translated very precisely; others are much closer to what we would call today "dynamic equivalence" or paraphrastic; a consistent translation principle was not used in translating the LXX, because the LXX was translated by many different people over centuries.

      10. Probably the most critical differences between the MT and LXX are found in Genesis 5 and 11 (the chronologies). The MT and V match exactly. The LXX differs widely such that the year of creation would be roughly 5,500–5,400 BC, whereas ~4,000 BC in the MT and V. Interestingly, the SP closely mirrors the MT in Genesis 5, but mirrors the LXX in Genesis 11. Clearly they can't all be right.

      Regarding the MT vs LXX vs SP chronologies, I highly recommend these articles:

      Textual traditions and biblical chronology

      Biblical chronogenealogies

      Some Remarks Preliminary to a Biblical Chronology

      The Masoretic text of Genesis 5 and 11 is still the most reliable

      We know from the DSS and other historical evidence that in the first few centuries BC and the first century AD there were actually several different Hebrew OT texts in competition. There wasn't an "official" text in use. My personal perspective is that the MT most closely resembles the original Hebrew text that was passed down through the centuries and was likely selected because it was 1. the most widely used, 2. sourced from within Israel, and 3. regarded as most authentic to the original.

      All that said, I do think some anti-Messianic readings in the MT were added in later and are not original, thus LXX wins out.

      I would state my belief regarding Scripture as follows: 1. All Scripture is God-breathed; 2. Only the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek autographs were directly inspired by God and are thus "inerrant"; 3. Like the translators of the KJV stated in the introduction to their work, I believe all of us, regardless of which translation we possess, have before us the true and inspired word of God *insofar as our translation agrees with the original autographs*.

      Blessings!

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    10. Thank you Gary and Pastor Rich for your comments, I do appreciate them greatly. There is so much to unpack; you are right...far to much to unpack here.

      Briefly, I am aware of a lot of the points being made and I suppose like anything it comes down to what someone believes as they work through what they find. Happy hunting as Rich said! indeed.

      In regard to Ken Johnson, he is "approachable" in so much as you meet him live on his live streams. His videos do not allow comment, that is his personal choice. Becomes hard to work through if you can't meet him live. So in that respect it is not at all like this forum. Or that of Doug's; I have discussed with Douglas Woodward and agree Pastor Rich that he is very easy to talk with.

      The problem I have with Ken Johnson's last video demonstrates the problem I have with all of it. Go watch it. https://youtu.be/nHe43ZRQXAk Then go look up Jasher in any MT translation. Then go look up those verses referenced and find Jasher in the LXX. Hint: you will find Jasher in MT, you will not find Jasher in LXX. So his entire video is about justifying going to Jasher and basing conclusions from there and the Canon telling him to go to Jasher. It is a strawman. Which brings me to the larger issue in general. Gary, I have researched and am aware of a lot of the numbered points you make. Any of us can make those points; yet shouldn't it come down to what we actually find in the text? Ken Johnson's video is a case study of what people are doing. We have general thoughts on what we believe to be true and then we torture the data into submission. Is it in the text or not. He literally says it is when it is not. He says Jasher is in both the LXX and MT and it is not in the LXX so it is not in both. People make mistakes; I make mistakes. I will continue to learn from Ken Johnson, so I am not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water or be ungraceful. Yet, the truth is the truth and there is error here. I do not mean that as an attack. I make errors. Errors are errors. Let's fix them. That is what textual criticism and being teachable is. (Not that he isn't)--I am just suggesting we look at things and fix it.

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    11. The very best point you made Gary is this: 10. Probably the most critical differences between the MT and LXX are found in Genesis 5 and 11 (the chronologies). The MT and V match exactly. The LXX differs widely such that the year of creation would be roughly 5,500–5,400 BC, whereas ~4,000 BC in the MT and V. Interestingly, the SP closely mirrors the MT in Genesis 5, but mirrors the LXX in Genesis 11. Clearly they can't all be right.

      Quite right. Are people willing to look at how the LXX completely destroys all the Clarence Larkin charts and all that follow? Both chronologies cannot be correct.

      And yes, I believe all of us can have confidence in the Bible in front of us; so we agree. Yet this forum is about Prophecy for the most part and people who gather here are looking for Jesus as our redemption draws near so in dealing with mysteries and the weightier matters of Scripture; that is the context of why this conversation is necessary. In other words, the gospel is not in question here whether through the MT or LXX connecting to the New Testament.

      We likely do not have the original autograph; however, the LXX is the older text so I am absolutely of the opinion based on heavy research that "LXX is a translation of older Hebrew texts than what the MT was translated from)," (to borrow from Gary's post).

      I close by offering some of the resources other than Barry and Doug and Smith that have influenced how I see it:
      https://youtu.be/OsWsZx3mZZc
      https://youtu.be/FF0F8YjT1og
      https://youtu.be/VI1yRTC6kGE

      The Patterns of Evidence crew also gets into this with David Rohl and Douglas Petrowich.

      I will gladly add the links to my own research Gary and I thank you for them. To keep it simple I would just suggest what I started with; is it in the text? It either is or is not and both can't be right when there is a clear omission outright change. There are many better men then I who have already catalogued those moments which is why I reference them in all of my posts. Believing Akiba corrupted the text doesn't destroy inerrancy and is not automatically a conspiracy. Blanket statements need to be supported with actual textual analysis which is why you are right in saying we won't get this solved any time soon and this space doesn't offer that. Thank you for your teaching and your patience in working through everything :)



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    12. Gary, this is a wonderful addition:
      Hey TP! It's a fascinating topic, I would argue probably not resolvable here. Lots of scholarship on both sides of the debate. As I mentioned before, some LXX readings are preferred and are used in the LSV. The LSV also includes the LXX Genesis chronologies set next to the standard MT chronology, which is a first in Bible translation.

      I have the LSV digitally, I had not noticed a side by side, where would I find that...is there more than one addition of LSV or did I just not look that section up yet? I just looked and do not see a side by side, my version is original when you first announced LSV I think.

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    13. I also want to address one more thing Gary, the idea that just because it is on the internet doesn't mean it is true. Agreed. Doesn't mean it isn't either. You with unsealed put all sorts of things on the internet that many would call untrue. I appreciate your work and think you are doing a great job, yet that doesn't dismiss the reality we are in. That is why we test everything. We need to be open and careful thought because making a comment like that steers people to think that anyone that brings up the LXX and questions some things must have gotten into the weeds of some internet conspiracy and that is so far from the truth of what is really going on; not just for me but for a great many well thinking Christians engaged in a deep study of the Scriptures alongside textual critics in the field. In point #1 you can say something is factually false and you can put conspiracy and Akiva in the same sentence, yet without evidence all it becomes is a blanket statement that steers people away from actual scholarship. Without getting into Akiva, yet definitely getting into the LXX; there are so many historical references to early church fathers referencing the LXX as authoritative and authentic that dismissing as internet theory is frankly a bit irresponsible. Probably not your intention. However, people need to know that the likes of Eusebius, Josephus, Julius Arfricanus, and theophilus all referenced the LXX this way. Here is a quote from Eusebius in his work "Chronicon": "Our Septuagint text and this Hebrew text are in harmony regarding the number of years each man lived prior to fathering a son." And again: "They both diverge from the Jewish Hebew version by 650 years." That is a very, very interesting fact that he references 650 years because the math shows how the text changed. Those quotes are his analysis of "the begats." He then says "consequently, the rational conclusion is that the figures provided in the Jewish version Adam to Abraham are in error." Further, "it is obvious that the Hebrew Jewish version is incorrect by the fact by it's calculations Adam and Noah were alive at the same time." I would add Shem and Abraham to fit in Melchizedek as Shem (falsely) as well...they did this because that is a very Jewish rabbinical belief. Finally he says "it is possible to show that the Jewish version is unreliable." And the Thesis statement from Eusebius: "Thus it is patently clear that the Septuagint was translated from old and accurate Hebrew copies and is the most appropriate text to use in our present chronicle, especially since the Church of Christ which has spread throughout the world, supports only this version and since the apostles and disciples of Christ used and transmitted this version." That quote from Eusebius Chronicon is quite something. It is not internet theory or conspiracy. It is what we have from Eusebius and we could go into Josephus and others as well.

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    14. Thanks for your feedback!

      Yes, you should see the LXX chronology next to the MT in Genesis 5 and 11 in any LSV.

      For instance, check out the LSV Bible reader; click Menu > Go To > "Gen5". From v. 3 on you should see bracketed text representing the LXX ages.

      Laying aside the MT vs LXX debate as a whole and just zeroing in on these two chapters, I think one of the best explanations for the development of the LXX and SP genealogies can be found here..

      Warm regards.

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    15. I mean no offense Gary and I am pretty sure people likely don't want to continue down the rabbit hole that is the LXX vs MT topic. I read your first paper that you reposted in your last message about LXX and SP genealogies and I think it is a poor example for scholarship. We don't need to belabor the point, I am happy to go there; yet I would be remiss to not mention it. I read this paper and it is all based on the assumption that the proto-LXX writers produced the earliest manuscript we have yet the LXX we have in our hands (something like Brenton's Septuagint) has been altered later to fit the MT which doesn't even wash with the data. Proto means "origin, first, precursor, earliest form of."
      So in the same thoughts consistently they admit we have a "proto-LXX" that is "deliberately altered" after the MT? How? The only way to say in the paper that we have a proto LXX and we have a late copy that has been "deliberately altered" is if we have a different copy of the LXX or we have a time machine to alter the proto (original) LXX. Then the question begs: "how did the original writers go forward in time hundreds of years to alter their own text?" Why would they? This entire paper is time machine theology because no proof is offered that we have an altered LXX text, it is just assumed because they want to believe the MT genealogy. Most people want to believe the MT genealogy because it fits in their fancy dispensational chart. I am a dispensational believer (I don't like classifications but I am trying to state that I think that way...I just say I am Christian); yet I think it is most important to let that data go where it takes you. Not to be shaken by the wind; yet if the information in front of us has revealed something are we willing to change our mind? Are we willing to accept that our protestant faith has been using a book that has been deliberately altered? No, most people would rather just believe it is that orthodox book because that is easier to deal with. If people will actually research this I do not see how they will conclude what this paper concludes in "Textual traditions and biblical chronology" by
      Lita Cosner and Robert Carter. And again, it is not an "internet theory," reducing this to internet theory does not help anyone...you can find Akiva in the source documents on sefaria and other places like jstor and you will see just how much of a piece of work that guy was...from the source documents...not internet theory. Many textual scholars have their own scholarship that does not agree with this paper that you base your findings on: Patterns of Evidence, Douglas Petrowich, Dave Rohl, Douglas Woodward, Barry Setterfield, Henry B Smith JR (who with Sexton actually take on the paper you reference), Jeremy Sexton, Dr Michael Heiser, older ones like Eusebius and Josephus and many others there as well. Heiser in his naked bible podcast has episodes on how the early church would have had the LXX as their Bible because there was a need for a translation in the Greek that everyone could read and was part of the great commission to go therefor. So why do we use a different Bible now? Are people willing to go there? In that respect the early church and Jesus testimony is MOST important. I don't necessarily think I will convince you, but this is a clarion call to all who read this to read this paper and any links Gary has shared and ALSO read the links I shared. Don't let me sway you, don't let anyone else sway you. Be a berean and "test everything" according to Scripture. Make your own conclusions.
      https://youtu.be/XS_QGbsz40E (The Heiser video). Unless people want to dive more I am checking out on this topic as I don't want to irritate anyone either...blessings to everyone :)

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    16. One final encouragement as there is no reason to deny the scholarship in this area if someone is concerned about inerrancy or Biblical authority; the paper Gary referenced had this to say and it is said very well and I agree: "Does this mean that the Bible’s textual transmission
      is broken in some way? In fact, in many ways, the
      ‘democratization’ of transmission that resulted in so many
      variants actually aided the preservation of Scripture because no one elite group could unilaterally change passages they
      did not like—there were simply too many copies." We can gain value from all the texts, I would just add so long as they treat the testimony of Jesus as the Christ correctly. Don't want to get into the weeds there because there would be a lot to unpack.

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  3. US tells Israel that Iran nuclear deal is 'off the table' - report

    Quoting, i24news,

    The United States conveyed to Israel that a new nuclear deal between Iran and world powers is "off the table," according to a report in Hebrew media.

    US President Joe Biden and other administration officials told Israel's Prime Minister Yair Lapid in recent talks that the nuclear agreement would not be signed in the foreseeable future.

    ...the article continues,

    The agreement was apparently derailed by Iran's insistence that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) stop its monitoring of the Islamic Republic's nuclear facilities. According to the report, Israel pressured the Americans to keep the issue of the UN atomic watchdog's monitoring activities on the table during negotiations.

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    1. UN atomic agency questions nature of Iran’s nuclear program

      Quoting, i24news,

      *An IAEA report shows Iran's stock of uranium enriched up to 60 percent is enough for a nuclear bomb*

      The UN's nuclear watchdog said Wednesday it could not guarantee the peaceful nature of Iran's nuclear program, saying there was "no progress" in resolving questions over the past presence of nuclear material at undeclared sites.

      In a report seen by AFP, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said it was "not in a position to provide assurance that Iran's nuclear program is exclusively peaceful.”

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  4. I have learned to trust and respect both Jeff and Gary since I first came to this site 2-3 years ago but learning you are a Dallas Theological graduate Jeff, just upped that trust and respect several more points! Great article by the way.

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  5. ✨Jeff, I have wondered whether there were more examples of harpazo in the OT, so I am very glad Gary encouraged you to do this study! AND it illustrates the great transition the harpazo of the true Church will have—JUDGMENT for Israel; JOY in Eternity for the Church BUT with the promise of JOY and restoration for Israel in the end.

    AND the significance of Harpazo Joe has sunk in—YIPPEE!!!

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  6. such a beautiful piece of work Jeff! truly Incredible * /// TP you couldn't of said it any better, sincerely. Thank you both, We Shall Overcome \./ ~ SHALOM ~

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  7. Very nice work, Jeff. Your study was like a little foretaste of the Emmaus Road session, Luke 24:27, I'm hoping for when we all get Home. Gave me goosebumps. Thanks for sharing. Abba bless.

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  8. Jeff, truly amazing work! I am so grateful for you, Gary, Lu, ETDD, Lyn, PR (I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, so please forgive me) and others who do the deep dives and correlations that the rest of us do not have the talent or resources to do. Talk about knowledge increasing in the last days! Thank God for the good uses of technology--most especially Bible software, eh. I hadn't seen your article on the twins--fascinating!! as not sure I was following this site and Rev12daily yet, tho was plugged into the R12 sign at the time. Wow, just wow. Being able to see the "big picture" view of the Bible story--and now with the OT uses of harpazo--brings such enlightenment and hope.

    As an aside, I read down through the comments on that article, and only recognized one or two names. I wonder where they all are now? I hope they didn't get discouraged when we didn't go Home on 9-23-17. I doubt it.

    At any rate, thank you so much for this article--truly inspiring to see the beautiful continuity and cohesion of God's revealed Word. This would have been so difficult for prior generations.

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  9. One nation born in a day! birth before labor!! Wow, Spiritual Israel *

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  10. Jeff, not to be off the subjuect, but do you see any spiritual significance to the death of Queen Elizabeth during the month of Elul, a month of repentance in preparation, not only for the coming of the Messiah, but also for coming judgment?

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    1. Hello, Steve,

      I just posted what the LORD shared with me tonight. (See below)

      PR

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  11. Hi Jeff, thanks for this exciting study. I just wanted to share with you that I noticed this apparent similarity between Revelation 12:1-9 with Psalms 121-129. It accords with the idea of a rapture taking place when the end-times beast system arises.
    In Psalm 121, the sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night, corresponds with the woman clothed with sun and moon under her feet in Rev 12:1. Moreover, the Lord is "thy shade upon thy right hand" in Psalm 121, may refer to the constellation Virgo holding a branch in her right hand (which provides shade), and "going out and coming in" may refer to the birthing process of going out of Egypt/the world and coming into the promised land/heaven.
    Psalm 121 also alludes to Genesis 37. The repetition of the idea of God not sleeping nor slumbering is not common in the Bible, and seems to hint at the dream of Genesis 37, perhaps, suggesting that this time the dream of being saved (or raptured) is going to be actualised again. And God is our faithful keeper, unlike the brothers of Joseph who behaved not too dissimilar from the evil brother Cain who said that he was not his "brother's keeper". Unlike Cain though, Joseph's brothers in particularly Reuben and Judah repented of the evil thought, maybe prefiguring that national Israel shall in time repent and be saved.
    In Psalm 122, it describes a picture of going into the house of the Lord (but not inside yet?), which is possibly reminiscent of the process of the child being birthed in Revelation 12:2. This may even be referring to the 2017 period onwards where watchmen get excited over the appearance of the Rev 12 sign. The thrones of judgement in Psalm 122 hearken to the throne of glory spoken of in Rev 12:5.
    As for Psalm 123 and Rev 12:3, perhaps it is no coincidence Psalm 123 talks about being filled with contempt of the proud as Rev 12:3 introduces the picture of the Red Dragon with seven crowns. While some watchmen speculate that the dragon could be a reference to Planet X striking the Earth, it may also concurrently be referring to the anti-Christ kingdom on Earth with its seven seats of power. Perhaps the AC, or the seven kingdoms or ten horns are not identifiable yet, but it is hard to miss the rise of the globalist world order under WEF, WHO, etc. Interestingly, with all the shots being pushed, watchful Christians are alarmed by the powers of government, or perhaps the "proud waters" spoken of in Psalm 124, threatening to engulf us with their needles, chips. Our current predicament is well captured by Psalm 123:3.
    In Psalm 124, it describes an escape as bird out of a snare, just as the Rev 12:4 dragon is about to devour the child. Psalm 124 ends with the reminder that "Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth", perhaps implicitly linking this rescue to the realisation of the promises spoken of in Psalm 121:2. Then in Psalm 125, we see that the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous, just as the man child in Rev 12:5 is caught up to God to rule with a rod. These probably describe the rapture event.
    Psalm 126 describes that Israel has been turned again from captivity. While this could be a continuation of the escape described in Rev 12:5 or Psalm 125, I find it unlikely as Rev 12:6 now speaks of the woman and not the man-child. Usually the idea of returning from captivity is in reference to national Israel. Perhaps God is dealing with them as a regathered nation again, and protecting them in a time of tribulation, after national Israel is provoked to jealousy and turned back to God.
    Revelation 12:7 describes war in heaven while Psalm 127 speaks of children of the womb as arrows - I guess no coincidence in these themes of battle. Perhaps this heavenly battle is also reflected as an earthly battle. Maybe this is in reference to the man-child caught up to heaven, or the 144000 sealed who will do the Lord's work of working the harvest during the tribulation. Thank you.

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  12. OUR CONDOLENCES TO THE ROYAL FAMILY

    One of the best gifts God can give a family and loved ones is the gift of goodbye. Sudden loss of a loved one is so very difficult especially when it is unexpected -- while those who are blessed to say goodbye still have to deal with the pain of loss and separation. This is not to say we have no hope or faith. On the contrary, we of faith still mourn what we have personally lost. The depth of our grief is testimony to the love we shared.

    May the LORD of all grace sustain you in your time of loss and grieving.

    Grace and peace to you.

    God save the king,


    Pastor Rich

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  13. THE LAST GENERATION (Continued)

    A quick installment to the topic...

    I have suspected that Queen Elizabeth would pass soon in a manner of prophetic significance. Tonight I may have hit on a facet of that...

    While doing astronomical studies of the coming anniversary of the Great Sign, I was reminded that we are at a historic time. Jupiter stands high in the night skies in the Northern Hemisphere now and is rather brilliant! You can't miss it and there's a reason why.

    Jupiter (the king planet) is almost in opposition to Earth. Opposition is defined as when the Earth finds itself directly between the Sun and another planet. This is the moment at which that planet is said to be 'in opposition'. Interestingly enough, Earth will be the closest it's been to Jupiter in seventy (70) years.

    Hmmm...

    How many years did Queen Elizabeth II reign? Her reign was for seventy (70) years!

    When will Earth and Jupiter be in opposition? Earth will be in opposition with Jupiter on September 26. Is that an important date you may ask?

    Hmmm...

    ...only if you consider Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashana) to be an important date!

    That's right! Jupiter will be at it's closest approach to Earth on this Feast of Trumpets. But wait there's more...

    What event kicks off after the harpazo of the church? The restrainer is removed in advance of what? For those of us who follow a pre-tribulational rapture the body of Christ is taken from Earth before the beginning of the tribulation.

    That's BEFORE DANIEL'S 70th WEEK!!!!

    With the passing of a generation another generation takes its place. His Majesty King Charles III is now the oldest monarch to ascend to the throne of England. At age 73 (a watermark number in Scripture), King Charles will be the oldest monarch to sit on the throne of England in the 1,000 years of the crown.

    Who is the oldest living King?

    The oldest King is Jesus and He is preparing to begin His millennial reign!

    Look for more soon on astronomical observations surrounding 9/23/22 and 9/26/22 as well the more on the last generation and the two witnesses. The skies are pouring forth some interesting speech! (Psalm 19:1-2)

    Blessings,


    PR

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    1. Now that IS prophetic, dear Brother! May the nearness of the King Planet on Rosh Hashanah portend the Catching Away of the Bride by Her King and Bridegroom!

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  14. Here are my thoughts on the "Man Child" and the "Woman"

    There appeared another symbol in heaven, a great red Dragon, with seven heads, and ten horns with seven crowns upon his heads. That again is a symbol.

    The locusts and the angels at the river Euphrates, and their horseman army are not symbols, they are literal angels and demons.

    This red Dragon is a symbol, as the woman is a symbol. His tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth, and the Dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

    And her child was caught up unto God and his throne. And the Dragon was not able to touch the child. So, when Michael threw him out of the Heavenly's, there was no child for him to persecute.

    Rev.12:13 - when the dragon was cast out unto the earth, he persecuted the WOMAN, which brought froth the man child, and to the WOMAN were given two wings of a great eagle, and she went three and a half years, to hide in the wilderness. A remnant remains in Jerusalem and he will persecute them there.

    This woman is Israel restored, that made the covenant with Antichrist, and in the middle of the week the covenant will be broken. The 144,000 that are sealed, are sealed in Israel. They come out of that restored nation Israel.

    Those 144,000 Jewsrepresent those saintsin Daniel, that are delivered, whose names are written, in a book that God keeps, and He'll seal them, 12,000 from each tribe.

    Go to Rev.20:4 - I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (this is after Satan has been bound, and cast into the bottomless pit, and Armageddon is over, and Satan is bound 1,000 years in the pit, millennium is about to start) I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus (these are the martyred tribulation saints),

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  15. We see Old Testament saints that are going to rule for ever and ever in Daniel 7:18, which include the 144,000 that are going to rule. We see in Rev.2:26, the Church is going to overcome and rule through the centuries with a rod of iron.

    The martyred tribulation saints, who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Reigned with Christ!

    Just because the phrase says that the man child is going to rule with a rod of iron, that does not make him Jesus or the Church!

    Jesus is the power that has been given all dominion, and God gave Him the promise cataloged in Philippians 2, that if He would obey, obedient unto death, which bought the purchase price in full for all mankind, God would give Him a name above every name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee would bow.

    There are two great bodies of Jews, apart from the saved Jews (there's the righteous by faith Jews who went up with the rapture, and there are those who recognize the true Messiah during tribulation, and come up with the martyred saints, but as God turns from the wild olive branch of Romans 9, back again (Romans 9, 10, 11 describes it), to the old olive tree, to finish what He started with the literal descendants of Abraham.

    And those literal descendants of Abraham, during the tribulation, take the firstfruits of a restoration of the Israelites, and the firstfruits are the 144,000, the firstfruits of the religious return of the Jewsthat Ezekiel talks about when they build the temple during the millennium.

    The 144,000 will be sealed, will become preachers of righteousness, they will be protected from these demons and all of a sudden, with out anything else being said about them, they show up in the 14th chapter in heaven.

    How did they get there? They are the man child! And at the time of the seventh trumpet, before the devil comes down to destroy that man child, the child is caught up. That's how the 144,000 get there.

    The man child is the 144,000 in symbol! Sure they are going to rule, they come out of the woman, which is the Nation Israel, and her child is caught up unto God and to his throne.

    Rev. 14 - I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Fathers name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders; and no man could learn that song but the 144,000, which were redeemed from the earth.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. soo interesting!, soooo cool !! Greg, ty for sharing bromam * soo outta sight ^

      Delete
  16. Speaking of OT rapture typologies, Isaiah 57:1-2 read

    The righteous has perished, "" And there is none laying [it] to heart, "" And men of kindness are gathered, "" Without any considering that from the face of evil "" The righteous one is gathered.
    2He enters into peace, they rest on their beds, "" [Each] is going straightforward.

    The word "perish," abad, in Hebrew can also mean vanish. I know the translators liken it to death, but the context of verses one and two here, sure fits rapture typology as well, seems to me.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Excellent stuff! I knew about much of this, but you took it to a whole new level! Well done!

    ReplyDelete


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