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2300 evenings and mornings

Daniel Matson suggested a connection of Micah 5:3 to the Woman in Labor of Revelation 12 which is of immense significance, because it suggests that the 70th week of Daniel could  possibly begin when the Woman of Revelation 12 gives birth.  The passage states that the Messiah will give up His people UNTIL the time when she who is in labor has born a child.  If Messiah begins the process of redeeming His people Israel after the Woman births her child, then this would strongly indicate that the 70th week of Daniel has begun, at the end of which Israel is redeemed and the Millennial reign of Messiah ensues...

Confirmation that the 70th week has begun would come in the form of the "covenant" mentioned in Daniel 9:27, which is made at the very onset of the week by an individual that many Bible commentators would say is the antichrist.  This covenant is a real world, observable, geopolitical event, that we as believers should be able to hopefully recognize (if still here), and would mark the onset of the 70th week.  Without a covenant as mentioned in Daniel 9:27, we can be assured that the 70th week is not underway...I am focused like a laser on this future event!

If a covenant marks the onset of the 70th week, then we might wonder about its characteristics, i.e. who are the parties involved? What is the nature of the covenant? And does the timing of the covenant match the internal Scriptural characteristics that are described for us?  Let's take these one by one to see if we arrive at a possible plausible explanation, and if it is internally consistent.

The covenant is made with the "many", or "rabyim", or multitude in Hebrew.  This indicates the covenant is not just with Israel, but includes surrounding nations, maybe with her immediate neighbors, but which could mean the nations of the world, as in the UN.  The covenant is one that is forced by a stronger party onto a weaker party, as conveyed by the Hebrew word "gabar".

We can deduce the nature of the covenant since we know the 70th week of Daniel involves God's judgment upon the world.  Joel 3: 1-3 indicates the proximate cause of God's judgment on the nations is that they divided His Land.  Ezekiel 35 and 36 indicates that the Land promised to Jacob was coveted and seized by Esau or Edom.  Isaiah 24:1-6 indicates that judgment results from the nations breaking the Everlasting Covenant.  The Everlasting Covenant is mentioned in Genesis 17:7-8 as the Land of Canaan given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for an everlasting possession.  Therefore, we can deduce that the covenant that the antichrist imposes upon Israel and her neighbors is one which will divide the Land of the Everlasting Covenant, and which awards the Land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to Esau.  God has proclaimed in Ezekiel 36 that He will vindicate His Name by returning His people from exile and dispersion to the Land promised to the fathers, and His goal is diametrically opposed to the goal of the world which is determined to divide His Land in the form of the two-state solution.

Thus far we have an idea of the nature of the covenant and who it involves...It would be an agreement that is forced upon Israel and her neighbors, to divide the Land of the Everlasting Covenant and to give part of it to Esau, by splitting off Samaria, Judea, and East Jerusalem, thereby violating God's commitment to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which awarded the Land as an everlasting possession.

Once the 70th week begins, there are specific day counts that describe more real world events that those remaining on earth would see.  The first half of the 70th week is thought to be representative of the time that Israel is protected from the antichrist, described as 42 months, or 1260 days.  At the midpoint, the antichrist puts an end to sacrifice and shortly after commits the Abomination of Desolation.  Then there is a period of 1290 days as described in Daniel 9 dated from the stopping of sacrifice and the Abomination of Desolation until the end at the Day of Atonement.  Finally, there is an additional 45 days described for a day count of 1335, at which point those who remain are greatly blessed, and likely represents the 45 days taken to consecrate the new Temple as in the days of Hezekiah.

These day counts, 1260, 1290 and 1335, begin from the 1st day of the 70th week, or when the covenant is implemented that divides the Land of the Everlasting Covenant.  If we could just pinpoint the date of the onset of the 70th week, we could project these day counts to see if the result is internally consistent with Scripture...hence the interest in Daniel Matson's association of the Woman of Rev 12 with Micah 5:3!  If we can pinpoint the birth described in Micah 5:3, then we have a possible date of onset of the 70th week: October 15th, 2017.  This was arrived at using the planetarium at neave.com, and was defined by Jupiter, or Zedek, crossing the line of the stick figure of Virgo drawn between the stars of Kappa Virginis and Spica on the way to Libra after leaving Virgo.




Does this date match up well with the day counts?  The time period from October 15th, 2017 to Passover March 28th, 2021, when sacrifice would be stopped, is exactly 1260 days.  The time period from the middle of Passover week April 1st, 2021, when the Abomination of Desolation would occur, to October 12th 2024, Day of Atonement, is exactly 1290 days which matches Daniel 12.  Day 1335 on November 26th, 2024 finds Zedek in the middle of the Horns of the Wild Ox, in the exact same location as it was on Crucifixion Day 14 Nisan 32 AD, and which signifies the Messiah who has returned to rule and reign from the newly consecrated Millennial Temple, so the date of October 15th, 2017 as a potential date for the onset of the 70th week is internally consistent with Scripture, so far so good...all that is needed is a covenant to divide the Land that would validate the celestial events.

One other day count that has been an enigma is that of the "2300 evenings and mornings" of Daniel 8. There were 2 daily sacrifices, evening and morning, in the 2nd Temple era, and therefore 2300 sacrifices would occur during a period of 1150 days.  If the stop to sacrifices occurred on Passover March 28th 2021, then they would resume after a period of 1150 days, or 2300 evening and morning sacrifices.  This leads us to the date of May 22nd 2024, which turns out the be on the day of Pesach Sheni, the Passover of 2nd chances on the Hebrew calendar!  That the Jews would resume sacrifices on the Passover of 2nd chances just prior to the 5 months of torment of God's wrath in the last year of Daniel's 70th week is amazing given that they will be delivered through the wrath and redeemed at the time they look on Him whom they have pierced!


Maybe the celestial events and the potential onset of Daniel's 70th week will be corroborated by a covenant to divide the Land, and maybe not, we will soon see.  If a covenant occurs in accordance with the celestial events this Fall, then I believe they will mutually validate each other, and will confirm that the covenant is THE covenant described in Daniel 9:27...

Below is a 20 minute video I have posted on the 2300 evenings and mornings of Daniel 8, with a proposed timeline chart of the 70th week which may be of interest:


Shalom!
Sam

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81 comments :

  1. Right on! Great article and a lot for me to chew on. Thanks for sharing Sam.

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    1. Thanks Gary, exciting times this summer and fall!

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    2. Dan 8 says "2300 Days" not "2300 Mornings and Evenings". Jesus was not Crucified 14 Nisan 32AD; He had to have been a "Young Child" and under 2 when Herod died in Spring of 4 BC after ordering the Slaughter of Innocents; Jesus was born Feast of Tabernacles 6 BC and at 33, Crucified on Passover Eve 27AD.

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    3. Hi Howard, thanks for the comment! I hope to discuss this in a manner that is an edifying exchange of ideas, and does not decompensate into a "I'm right, your wrong" debate, if it does then I will ask you again to refrain from contentious debate and to contact me privately to continue the discussion. There is nothing wrong with open exchange of ideas and opinions, as long as we remain cognizant of the fact that as believers, we should act like believers in our discussions. With that out of the way at the outset.......

      The translation "evenings and mornings" is derived from the Masoretic Hebrew text from the Hebrew words "boqer" Strongs 1242, meaning "dawn", and from "ereb" Strongs 6153 meaning "evening", hence the translation in the New American Standard version "evenings and mornings". The KJV translates boqer and ereb as "days" in the English, but I believe this misses the proper translation from Hebrew which is literally "evenings and mornings".

      The birth year of Messiah has been historically accepted as 4 BC based on what has been accepted as the years of Herod's death, but this view has come into question by an increasing number of historians who now believe the year of Herod's death was actually 1 BC. If true, this would put the year of Messiah's later than previously believed, and makes a Crucifixion year of 32 AD eminently possible. This link is one where the controversy of death year of Herod is discussed, and which you may find of interest:

      http://www.hope-of-israel.org/herodsdeath.html

      I agree that this is not definitive, and maybe with more time and evidence a predominant view will prevail, but for now as far as I can tell the ball is in the air! I favor the 32 AD date because of how well it lines up with Psalm 22:21, and the celestial testimony at the time (Zedek in the middle of the horns of the wild ox), but could be wrong! Nevertheless, the actual year of the Crucifixion does not affect the timeline 2017-2024 of the 70th week, nor of the 2300 evenings and mornings dated from Passover 2021.

      Shalom!

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    4. I would also be remiss if I didn't credit Gavin Finley at endtimepilgrim.org for his astounding work on the 32 AD date of Crucifixion, arrived at through historical moon phase data compiled by NASA dating back for the last thousands of years...very convincing, and based on historical data! Daniel Matson and others also favor the 32 AD date, yet there are others who find a 33 AD date to be most convincing!

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    5. Excellent Sam! I appreciate your willingness to simply explore truth. The 1611 KJV translated the Masoretic Texts into English. Dan 8:14 "two thousand three hundred days"; Strongs #3118 Yowm means "Day" #3117 Yome is referenced and means "Hot" i.e. Warm Hours, "Sunrise to Sunset" or "One Sunset to the next". To me it simply means "2300 Days", not the division of 1150 Days and 1150 Evenings.
      Jesus was a "Young Child" (Mat 2:8;9;13) when Herod sought to kill Him. Jesus was born on Feast of Tabernacles, easily proven using the text in Luke 1. If Jesus had been 2 1/2, He would have not been targeted by the Slaughter of Innocents; at 6 Months, the term "Young Child" would not be used which is why New Versions mostly use "Infant". I am unaware historians are revising Herod's death later, but its not surprising.
      Jesus began His ministry at His Baptism "Holy Ghost descended in the bodily shape like a dove upon him" at 30 years of age (Luke 3:21-23); His ministry lasted 3 years until His Crucifixion on Passover. I see no physical way to ascribe 32AD or 33 AD to His Crucifixion. He had to have been born 1 1/2 years before Herod was killed by the angel of the LORD in the Spring of 4 BC i.e. Born Feast of Tabernacles 6 BC- Crucified Passover 27 AD.

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    6. http://endtimepilgrim.org/posttribrap.htm
      Sam, why do you advocate Gavin Finley's End Time Exegesis when he is clearly against the false teaching of Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

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    7. Howard thanks for your reply! I am uncertain where you are coming up with Yowm and Yome 3117 and 3118. The King James version for Daniel 8:14 also uses "ereb" and "boqer" evenings and mornings as shown in this link below which tranliterates the KJV, MT and Hebrew along with Strongs numbers....I do not see 3118 or 3117, but I do see "ereb" 6153 and "boqer" 1242 translated as "days" in the KJV, which I believe is an inaccurate translation.

      The link I provided about Herod's date of death of 1 BC is what I believe is true, and I do not believe the 4 BC date is correct...the jury is still out on this one, although increasing numbers of historians are coming around to a 1 BC date. Again, it is not definitive either way at this point......hopefully more evidence will come forth to nail it down.

      It is a stretch to say that I advocate Gavin Finley's end time exegesis because I cited his excellent work on the historical moon phase data from NASA when he arrives at the 32 AD Crucifixion year...furthermore, I have not advocated for a pre-trib rapture, so maybe you jumped to some unwarranted conclusions?

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    8. Here is the link re the transliteration of the KJV, MT, and Hebrew:

      http://www.qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/daniel/8.html#14

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    9. Even the 1611 KJV uses boqer and ereb, 1242 and 6153, in Daniel 8:14, not yowm or yome 3118 and 3117 as you stated, and as can be seen here comparing the 1611 KJV and 1769 KJV:

      http://1611bible.com/kjv-king-james-version-1611-1769/daniel/8.html#14

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    10. I double checked, KJV and Strong's (1990 ed) agree with "Days" being H3117/8 in Dan 8:14 and most other instances in Dan 8;10.
      As to 1 bc Herod dying and 32AD Crucifixion, I can find no evidence for that. If you have some references I'll certainly check them out.

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    11. I don't what else to say Howard.....I have posted from every source, and none of them have 3117/3118. The MT clearly has evenings and mornings, which is why the NASB and many others state it that way. If you have a source that says otherwise, please post it....I am happy to check it out! The link I provided you shows the KJV, MT, Hebrew side by side...I am not aware of another source that supports the 3117/3118. I know you are interested in truth more than being right, so I am open to your sources!

      The link I posted above outlines the view for the 1 BC date.......like I said, it is not definitive, the jury is still out, it is not an open and shut case.....however, more are coming to believe he died at a later date. We will see....

      Thanks for the tenor of this discussion, much appreciated!
      Shalom,
      Sam


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    12. I suppose one other question....do you believe the sources I posted are in error, and if so, why and what is your evidence?

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    13. Forgive me Howard, but one other observation re the 32 AD date.....Gavin Finley performed a masterful analysis (ie evidence) that I referenced earlier.....and you ask for evidence....did you read his analysis, and if so, would you like to refute it? In the absence of refuting Gavin's analysis, I think he prevails by default.....

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    14. I can see where you get "Mornings and Evenings" from; the Hebrew Interlinear references those words rather than "Days" as is written in the MT; not sure why this is such a big deal but I will research it.
      I read a lot of Gavin Finley's analysis. Dan 9:27 "70th Week" and 7 Yr Tribulation I disagree with; "Covenant with Many" is 7 Days at the end of the age; 2 Witnesses (Enoch and Elijah) are killed "Mid-Week" and are the first to rise after 3 days, on the last Day before the 7 Vials of God's Wrath are poured out.
      I can find zero evidence Herod died in 1 BC; do you have a reference I can look up? I place my faith in the absolute correctness of Scripture (Authorized Bible/KJV) there are so many differences in new versions it is impossible to gather a correct understanding; as 1 Jn 5:7 says (Missing in the NIV) Jesus, the Father and Holy Ghost are ONE; Jn 1:1; 14 tells us Jesus is the Word made Flesh; thus Father, Son, Holy Ghost and Word are one. AD "Anno Domini" (Year of our Lord) is not in reference to Jesus, but Antichrist.
      http://biblelight.net/year.htm
      This is another look at the 6 BC birth of Jesus; I personally do not subscribe or use anyone's analysis; I use Scripture and try to verify as best I can with history. Most attempts to alter "2300 Days" usually change them to "Years"; obviously this is a hot topic and I'll do more research for sure.

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    15. I really do appreciate the discussion and mean no disrespect or unnecessary Polemics; it's just that the 2300 Days was first altered to "Years" to account for Dan 9:23-27 457BC-27AD aligning with 69 Weeks of Years + Open ended Age of Grace + 7 Yr Tribulation. Jesus returns when Creation is 6000 Years to the second (2 Pet 3:8) there is nothing open ended or ambiguous in scripture; man has interpreted it to make it that way. 70 Weeks is what it says 490 Days fitting in just after the 5th Trumpet Warning (Rev 9:11). It just makes sense; Lucifer is cast out of Heaven, heads to the newly rebuilt Temple, sits on the Throne of Pergamon (Satan's Seat is currently in Berlin Museum) and enforces the Mark of the Beast. I place zero credibility in Persian King History after Cyrus; these are the Medes after all; the Chaldeans. They fit the timeline and alter scripture to fit their agenda.

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    16. No disrespect taken Howard.....I really don't have any knowledge of what you posted immediately above! I don't claim to follow every one of Gavin's analyses, just the one I mentioned, the historical moon phase NASA data of the Crucifixion year, which is very convincing. Again, the link I provided gives the rationale for a 1 BC death of Herod, with historical references and logic......nevertheless, the main crux of what we are discussing is "evenings and mornings", and this is the Masoretic Text from which the KJV, all years and versions, makes its translation. I do not ascribe to the 2300 years theory, do not teach rapture doctrine, (I favor pre-wrath, but am committed on this site to not debate it, and acknowledge that I may be wrong), do not believe Magog is Russia from Rosh (or other entymology) in Ezekiel 38, and do not promote Gavin's post trib position even if I believe his analysis on the moon phase data is unsurpassed.....it is not right to make sweeping conclusions and statements based on presuppositions which are not correct, it is premature, and one should always give the benefit of the doubt!

      As best as I can tell, from the Masoretic Text, Strong's concordance, Transliterations, and English translations, that "evenings and mornings" is indeed the most proper translation, in which case we are talking about 1150 days, 2 sacrifices per day for 2300......

      Thanks much for your considerate dialog, and blessings!
      Shalom,
      Sam

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    17. We'll need to leave this here. The Masoretic Text upon which the Authorized Bible was translated use "Days" #3117/8 in Strong's. Dan 70 Weeks is 490 days with the 70th Week the last 7 days. There is no 7 Yr Tribulation ever once mentioned in Scripture, only in people's "Private Interpretations"; from my research based on the LXX "Septuagint" which came from St Catharines Monastery, the fake Mt Sinai in Egypt, located by St Helena, Constantine's Druid Princess mother.
      Why people place so much faith in Interpretations is beyond me; 2300 Days and 70 Weeks is just not that difficult to understand.

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    18. Howard, can you provide a link to your source? I have posted many sources that prove the MT uses boqer and erev, and you have posted none. Unless you have a source that says otherwise, then it is apparent that you are making the statement in isolation, and have nothing to back your claim. Every single source of the MT states boqer and erev, including the KJV transliterations (all years and versions), NASB, PCStudy Bible, Memre, Logos...every single one! Not a single source supports your claim, which appears unsubstantiated...you have set yourself on an island....I suppose unless you have a source to support your claim, the conversation should end here as you say.

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    19. Sure Strong's Concordance references #3117 for "Days" in the text of the KJV Dan 8:14. The Masoretic Text upon which the KJV was written uses "Days" not "Evenings and Mornings" which generates a totally different Strong's reference. I'll stick with the KJV; figuring this out using Study Bible Notes or New Versions is confusing.

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    20. Unfortunately, the facts do not support your claim. The 3 links below are for "days", "evening", and "morning" taken from Strong's original 1890 edition, and in the first link, days as used in Daniel 8:14 is referenced by #6153 evenings, and #1242 mornings on page 245. In addition, #6153 evenings is referenced for Daniel 8:26 in the second link, and #1242 for mornings in the third link. I am posting this for all who are interested may see for themselves directly from Strong's original that your claim is offbase.

      https://archive.org/stream/exhaustiveconcor1890stro#page/n255/mode/2up/search/255

      https://archive.org/stream/exhaustiveconcor1890stro#page/316/mode/2up/search/255

      https://archive.org/stream/exhaustiveconcor1890stro#page/690/mode/2up/search/255

      This final link is a direct link to the Masoretic Text, which in Hebrew reads "evenings and mornings", adjacent to the proper English translation:

      http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3408.htm

      I have posted 3 more sources, from Strong's original, and from the MT directly which disprove your claims. Unless you can post another source, every literary source we have looked at contradicts your claim, and the conversation ends here.

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    21. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    22. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    23. Very well, Howard........once again, do you have any references whatsoever to support your view, and is Strong's 1890 wrong? Again, I know you are more interested in truth than being right...

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    24. You claimed the KJV was translated from the MT , are you now contradicting yourself by saying the MT is unreliable because of those tricky Masoretes? The additional fact is that every KJV version references evenings and mornings according to Strong's original 1890 as I have proven.....which begs the question as to where your literary reference is coming from or is this just your own idea?

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  2. Another opinion may also be considered

    The Blood Moons could have pointed to the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

    The two major events that took place during the beginning of 2014 are:

    1. Iran confirming the basic nuclear deal with the great nations of the world on January 20, 2014
    2. Rising of ISIS when it started to capture places in January 2014


    There are two entities mentioned in Revelation 17: 12,13
    1. Beast
    2. Ten horn nation.

    The Beast could be ISIS
    The ten horn nation may be ECO headed by Iran

    ECO is a ten member organisation of Muslim countries.
    Iran the head of ECO signed the nuclear deal with the G5 countries

    So The covenant signed with many could be Iran signing the deal with many countries.

    Iran wanted the deal specifically for seven years. Later they agreed upon something else. But they could have agreed to the deal on their own terms though not openly

    In Revelation 13 it says the beast will continue for 3.5 years. After 3.5 years it will blaspheme the tabernacle of God . Then it will trample the holy city for another 3.5 years during which every tribe tongue and nation will be persecuted.

    The first 3.5 years is the Tribulation Period
    The next 3.5 years is the Great Tribulation Period

    Similarly Iran which made the covenant with many will break it after 3.5 years and will attack Jerusalem.

    From the beginning of 2014, we are now nearly 3.5 years away.
    And now we see both Iran and ISIS attacking Israel.

    Both the previous temples in Jerusalem were attacked on Av 9 ( Jewish month)
    This year Av 9 falls on August 1. If the abomination sits in the holy place on that day then the Great Tribulation will begin. The September sign may show the beginning of the Great Tribulation and the approximate time of Rapture

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    1. Thanks for your thoughts! I lean towards a division of the Land as the covenant to lead off Daniel's 70th week since Joel 3 and Isaiah 24 both implicate a division of the Land as a proximate cause of judgment....
      Shalom!

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    2. What a confused mish-mash, no offense.

      The Desolation taking places THIS August, without a temple??

      "The Beast could be ISIS
      The ten horn nation may be ECO headed by Iran"

      Neither Islam nor Iran are the Beast, for crying out loud. I so tire of reading people like Skousen and Shoebat trying to bring Islam into this. Islam will be destroyed at Gog and Magog, no matter if it chops heads off.
      The deal is with the Jews, not the Persians. And neither Iran nor ISIS have really attacked Israel.

      Please read carefully all articles through this website.



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    3. Dear Sam,If The Man of Sin Visited the Dome (where the Holy Of Holies seems located) and perhaps declared Himself god/savior,would such an effort satisfy the pertinent prophecies ..?

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    4. It possibly could Steve.....but, there still needs to be a "covenant" which all of us all believers would hope to be able to recognize....a covenant with the many in conjunction with an abomination as you aptly describe! All the parts need to be present......to complete the stew......

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  3. Sorry, my comments are not coming through on disqus. Will try here...

    Nice one. While I am not pre-trib, I am always interested to consider the fact that - should 10% of all individuals in 'christian' nations be raptured prior to the tribulation - leaving most countries in significant disarray, Israel would have little choice but to quickly accept a covenant to split Israel in order to preserve peace, build a temple etc. Being only a few months out from the Rev12 sign, a covenant seems nigh on impossible, but in the event of a global 'emergency'...

    Ryan D

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    1. Ryan, thanks for your comment! You are right.....it is a tall order to arrive at an agreement by this fall, even though the President and his team are working hard to get a summit together by this September....we will see soon!

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  4. Thanks for this article! It makes a great deal of sense. You're right: if all this is true and the seven-year Tribulation is going to begin on Oct 15 then the treaty needs to start forming this summer. But I think we may still be missing a piece. Isaiah 28:14-18 talks about the covenant that Israel is going to make with the antichrist. Take a close look at verse 15:

    Isaiah 28:15: "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"

    Three things stand about this agreement. First, they are not forced into this. Israel makes this covenant willingly - they are "at agreement". This verse doesn't sound like the treaty is being imposed upon them, which is why God is so upset with them about it (v18). Second, this covenant is based on lies. Israel willingly enters into a covenant with Hell that they know is a big lie. They do this because of the third point: they are terrified. There is an "overwhelming scourge" heading their way and they are convinced if they don't do this they are all going to die.

    The challenge I see is that Israel is actually in a strong position right now. What overwhelming scourge will so terrify them that they will become convinced fighting it is useless - even with the nuclear weapons they possess - and will decide to enter into an agreement that they know is based on lies and deceit in order to survive? It sounds like something awful is going around conquering the whole world, and Israel makes peace with it in order to have this threat "pass through" them and take out someone else.

    Is the world saying "peace and safety" because they think they've made peace with this scourge? Or has the scourge not yet appeared and won't show up until after we're gone? Something to think about.

    Oh - and if we disappear when the woman gives birth, does that put the rapture on Sept 9, which I think is when the woman actually gives birth?

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    1. Jonathan,

      If I remember the studies I read on the Rev 12 Sign correctly, Jupiter only leaves the “womb “area of Virgo on the 9th of September and will finally leave the Sign on the 23th of September after a quasi-long (2 weeks) travel through the “birth canal”.

      I’d like to add 2 things. Although rapture could happen on the 23th of September or on the Feast of Trumpets 1-2 days earlier, I think we should be cautious and it’s better to assume that the Rev 12 Sign is an “exit sign” as Greg L., called it, a sign that heralds the closeness of the rapture. The rapture could still happen before or after the 23th of this September. Perhaps Scottie Clarke is right and the rapture is the “birth-event” of the Church. If that is the case, the rapture is the actual event when the woman aka Israel in a spiritual sense (!) finally gives birth to the Church and it is simply that event that Micah 5:2-4 refers to, not the actual appearing of the Rev 12 Sign which might only point to the closeness of the rapture (or points back to it).

      Also, I’m one of those who think that a shorter period of time is possible between the rapture and the beginning of the 70th week. That period of time could be a few weeks or even a few months (but I don’t think it’s longer than that). IF that is the case, we might not see the actual covenant forming or reaching a “recognizable” final form. (For example, I’ve always thought that it’s possible that the Antichrist himself will announce that he decided to enforce this covenant for 7 years.)

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    2. p.s.: A bit of correction, it’s Micah 5:3 that refers to that “birth-event”. (I’ve put the entire passage of Micah 5:2-4 there previously, but I’ve specifically thought of the 3rd verse.)

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    3. Hi Jonathan, excellent thoughts! I believe that the covenant of Isaiah is one and the same with that of Daniel 9.....During the Obama administration, Israel was pressured into a de facto building freeze in Judea, Samaria and parts of Jerusalem, and they are still under pressure to hold off a bit. Trump, Kushner, and Greenblatt have signaled that both sides will have to give in and make concessions, so that is the type of pressure I believe will come about. It is conceivable as you say that the birth occurs on Sept 9th, but I favor the Oct 15th date because it is not dependent as much on a subjective call as to where the womb is...it is subjective however in the sense that how is "birth" defined? It made more sense to me to call it as it leaves the classic stick figure by crossing the line between Spica and Kappa Virginis on Oct 15th, after which it heads straight to Libra, the scales of judgment! The Oct 15th date also lines up perfectly with the feast days of Passover 2021 and Yom Kippur 2024, and now Pesach Sheni on May 22nd, 2024. These thoughts are all speculative, and may turn out differently, but it does give us food for thought!, Many blessings

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    4. Sam,

      My assumption is that while the ERA of the Lord’s judgment immediately begins after the rapture, His wrath might not follow immediately. A brother brought it to my attention not long ago that after the Church is gone there should be at least a brief period of time to pass for the 144,000 to receive the Lord’s seal of protection by the Holy Spirit. Also, there’s the description in Revelation how everyone in Heaven waits in reverence for the Lord Jesus to open the first seal, since He is only worthy. That’s only my assumption again but I believe so that after the rapture, the next event is the Bema Seat Judgement aka the Judgment Seat of Christ. As 2 Corinthians 5:10 says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (This is NOT about our salvation.) Also, if my memory serves me right, there will be a “welcome ceremony” in the heavenly realms, perhaps a “wedding ceremony” too. Of course I could be wrong, but as I mentioned, it is fairly possible that some time will be passed -a few weeks or months- between the rapture and the start of the pouring out of God’s wrath and judgment on Earth.

      Delete
  5. Thank you Nora, those are excellent observations! My understanding is the "wrath" of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal, and thankfully believers should be out of there by then!

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    1. Sam,

      Thanks for your kindness! Concerning the "wrath of God" I just meant God's wrath "in general", more precisely: His wrath being poured out through all His judgements (through all the seven seals/trumpets/bowls judgements). Sorry for not being more specific previously!

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    2. Understood Nora, no worries, and thanks for your kind reply!

      Delete
  6. I dont agree with everything done or taught at heavenlysign2017.com, but I am let to see any flaws in his timeline hypothesis.

    Have any of you looked into that timeline? If yes, what are your thoughts toward it?

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    Replies
    1. Hi Brandon, I haven't looked at it, but am interested! I will try and take a look later this evening after work, thanks for the link!

      Delete
    2. Hey Brandon, I've seen it. It is pretty convincing, but what it really comes down to is his unorthodox interpretation of the 1290 days. It's true that "sacrifice" is implied there and the construction might imply the 1290 days are first, but I'm not sure how strong the case is for that translation. I've been searching to see if any commentaries agree with a similar interpretation.

      Delete
    3. The only source for the Judah Ben Samuel prophecy that Heavenly Sign 2017 cites is from the author of the article himself who cannot find the original German source document for the prophecy and becomes stressed when asked about it (which raises a red flag for me) https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/59430/mystery-of-the-lost-jubilee-part-viii-prophetic-memories-opinion/#CIzHFDPLotrQyx7k.97

      A google search also reveals there are also several dates attributed to Johannes Kepler's date of creation and not just the one cited by Heavenly Sign 2017.

      I still believe this FOT is prophetically significant. Even if the Judah Ben Samuel prophecy was never prophecied by anyone (I personally think Ludwig Schneider the author backed everything into it) it's nevertheless an interesting pattern.

      As far as the date of creation, the only evidence I think I can trust is something directly attributed to God, like a prophetically significant constellation alignment, etc. I see too many creation date theories (Ussher, Kepler, Newton, etc., and they are all different. I know we're close to the end, but man I would love to know for sure if this fall is it.

      Delete
    4. Dear Brandon, some of Steve Sewells Gematria assumptions are exaggerated too in my opinion, but I think his 2017-24 timeline is actually the best. He has got some other great insights too e.g. on death and resurrection or the latest video on Polaris. Kind regards, MARANATHA! ;-)

      Delete
    5. Hi Brandon, I agree with Gary on the 1290 day timeline question, but otherwise it is very close to the same days of this timeline....pretty remarkable since we arrive within a few days of each other using completely independent methods!

      Delete
  7. I definitely am not a pretrib believer, but the main thing is that whomever is right, we all as believers in Christ will end up in heaven. I wish it were pretrib, as we will be out of here, but if my view is correct, there are going to be some pretribbers that are going to be unprepared. One of my favorite places among several others supporting a prewrath position is reading Matthew 24. Matthew 24:15 mentions the abomination of desolation...then verse 21 mentions there will be great tribulation such as never was or ever will be......Verse 29 says."IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days will the sun darkened, moon will not give her light..ect
    ..
    Verses 30 and 31 have Christ coming in the clouds and the elect will be gathered from the four winds.

    Then immediately comes God's wrath as in Revelation 8.


    The "elect" is not just Israel, but the church. There are all kinds of places to read up on who the elect are. Just do as I did...as I am a "show me" type, and prove to yourself.

    Again, with the grace of God, we believers will all make the rapture even if our timing is wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Good point Stan, I lean pre-wrath, but do not focus on it as a point of teaching! We may know very soon and I for one I would be happy to be wrong!

    ReplyDelete
  9. Sam- The last thing I want to do is create an argument over pretrib..prewrath....With a Bible in front of me, I can layout to someone a template that took me almost a year of daily study to arrive at. I exhaustively went through all the versions of the rapture. But I kept running into scriptures that would detail my line of thinking. It took me weeks sometimes to readjust my thinking to make a scripture fit, instead of taking a knife and making a window in the Bible page that did not fit. I have a template now that I haven't found a scripture that doesn't fit. But...if one comes along, I will tenaciously work at making another modification to my thinking, and leaving my Bible still have all its scriptures.

    AMAZING times we are living in, and I am busy preparing so that I can go through the tribulation helping as many receive Christ.

    God bless us all to help others be raptured, whenever that time comes!

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    Replies
    1. Amen Stan! Thanks for the comment!

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  10. If any readers wish to have the ppt of the chart at the end of the video, I am happy to email it to you by request....

    ReplyDelete
  11. Matthew 24:31-34King James Version (KJV)

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    When I read this passage it seems to me to be implying that the elect are being gathered from heaven, which makes be think its prior to our return to earth at Christ's second coming, rather than us being taken from the earth at the rapture.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Brandon- That is true about those in heaven...but read the parallel versions in Mark 13 and Luke 21. Mark 13:27 adds to the ones in heaven, also to the ones on earth. Luke 21:28 also says yo look up for your redemption draweth nigh.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Also, I forgot to mention that Matthew also includes the four winds of the earth..the earth dwellers.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Sam,

    dear brother please check out the Alpha&Omega timeline of Steve Sewell on his YouTube channel 'Heavenlysign2017'. There even must be (logically!) a timespan between rapture event and 70th week beginning, only according to global aftermath chaos, AC rising, covenant signing and waiting for the judgement seals to be broken by Jesus Christ like dear sister Nora already mentioned.

    The 2300 evenings and mornings (Daniel 8,14) are imho NOT the same as the 'daily / continual' sacrifice (= tamiyd) from Daniel 8,11-13; 11,31; 12,11 but this is a CONTINUAL one (not only twice a day but continually burning) = the church (!!) departed / taken away in the rapture. Check this out, there will be 30+1260 days to mid-trib (unleavened bread Sabbath 2021) and then 1260+75 days winepress wrath on Day of Atonement 2024 exactly according to Steves calculations which is indeed very compelling.

    The Jews will furthermore not need a whole temple being new built to do their evening/morning sacrifice but only a separate altar is needed according to scriptures. Check out the YouTube video lecture on 'Holy Temple Myth Busters' here by the leading Rabbi of Jerusalem Temple Institute as well: https://youtu.be/E66BgO-9eGU (part 1 of 4)

    Blessings brother, MARANATHA! ;-)

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    Replies
    1. Thanks Annabel, I had a chance to look at the timeline just today that you and Brandon above mentioned. My immediate thought is how closely this timeline matches his, some with even the exact days (ie 26 Nov 2024 day 1335) which we arrived at using completely independent and different methods. His day for the AOD is one day off this one (1 April 21 for this one, vs his of 2 April 2021....I think mine is right as it is April fools day :). I agree with Gary's earlier comment regarding his unorthodox calculation for day 1290....but, for the most part we are within days of agreement. His date for Yom Kippur 2024 is different as he uses the torahcalendar method for calculating the proper holiday, while I have used the current Hillel calculated date used by Jews today....his date of onset of the 70th week is Oct 20, while the date suggested by the birth of Zedek and the sign of the Dragon is Oct 15th, so we are close there as well.

      All in all, I am impressed by how close the timelines match, constructed by 2 different believers using 2 different independent methods! We will find out soon! We still need to see a covenant to mark the onset of the week....

      Delete
    2. Stephen Sewell uses the torahcalendar to arrive at the dates he uses on his timeline, and I believe it is a legitimate case...on the other hand, the dates of the timeline presented here are arrived at from the current Hillel calendar and the astronomy program at neave.com with the proposed celestial signs of the Woman in Labor, Birth, the sign of the Dragon and the Seven Angels. It is remarkable how close the timelines are......I take this to validate what we are all seeing. I favor the astronomy signs, because this is something everyone today can see online.....and the dates 1260, 1290 line up perfectly with Jewish feast days. For this reason I also favor the 1150 days interpretation of the twice daily sacrifices, since it perfectly lines up with Passover 2021 and Second Passover 2024, but I could well be wrong, and am willing to be so!

      I believe it is very important that diligent Bible students have arrived at the same timeline whether pre trib, pre wrath, or even post trib (Gavin Finley)....using entirely different methods and logic.......how crazy is that? It tells me we are on the right track, but we still need the covenant to kick off the 70th week

      Delete
  15. Extra Extra, Read all about it...

    I saw last night on Inside Edition that a woman gave birth in the air during a flight. It was a premature baby, flying to Dallas TX in June. 7 pounds, even.

    That number 7, my friends, birthed in the skies above. Nuff said.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Stan, thanks for sharing those other cross references.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Hebcal Yom Kippur date is wrong. Torahcalendar got it right. It's 9/13/24. Our timeline is bulletproof. 9/21 (not 23) to 11/27/24. I admire all the work you and Daniel have done. Ecept that you haven't taken seriously our flawless timeline. Rapture 9/21 (5778). 30 day gap. Tribulation begins 10/20/17. The sign is for Israel telling them what occurred. Midpoint Abomination of Desolation April 2 2021. Return 9/13/24. Kingdom begins 11/27/24. Show us where we're wrong. A mountain of evidence supports it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Steven, I appreciate your excellent work, and you could well be correct, we will see certainly in the near future! I am not convinced by the 120 years being Jubilee years, but it could be correct....I am also not so certain as you of your 1290 day calculation, nor of torahcalendar as a basis...not saying you are wrong, just saying I am not convinced. I also refrain from using "bulletproof" and "flawless" in my teaching, nobody knows everything, and there is a something about using terms like that which raises the hair on the back of my neck, and sets my warning radar off.....again, not to say you are wrong, but please accept those of us who at a lower plain of understanding when we act as Bereans...I have taken your timeline seriously, and have remarked how close it is to one I arrived at using totally different methods...we are talking days in the grand scheme of eons.....but, I would gladly yield the field, as I am not so concerned that I am right, as much as I am interested in folks becoming aware. Zedek leaves Virgo on 10/15/17, you say 10/20/17, let's see what happens friend!

      Delete
    2. Steven...Micah 5:3 states that He gives them up until the birth of the one who is in labor....how do you reconcile the date of 20 October with the sign of the Woman giving birth?

      Delete
  18. I agree Sam. When I see the use of words like bulletproof, etc., it raises red flags for me too. If the proof is strong on its own, there shouldn't be any need to embellish it with adjectives like that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Agreed Moon.....I have not received any telegrams, or heard anything in my ear......we are all digging for truth, and should all beg for humility as we search out the murky for understanding....

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    2. In addition, it disturbs me when believers beg for donations......greatly. There is a difference in my view from supporting someone from the local body, from going online to sell material or ask for donations....it has potential to induce corruption or bias, much like drug companies who ply doctors with favors to sell their goods, or publish data favorable to the company....I prefer to offer freely what was freely given, and to avoid any appearance of wrong doing or self aggrandizement

      Delete
    3. That's why I only watch bible prophecy YouTube channels where they are not selling anything and the irony is that I learn significantly more from those giving freely over those selling sonething.

      Delete
  19. Steven, how do you interpret Psalm 22:21? How does He answer the Messiah from the Horns of the Wild Ox?

    ReplyDelete
  20. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Steven, when you asked Gavin Finley, a close friend of mine, to peruse your research, did you realize he is diametrically opposed to your teaching as a post trib adherent, and one who is completely at odd with your dates? I find your comments on his youtube site curious

      Delete
  21. Steven, not to be rude, but you asked....one more question, and then I will wait for your responses. As you know, Sir Robert Anderson arrived at a crucifixion date of 14 Nisan 32 AD by moon phases, which was verified by Gavin Finley using historical moon phase data published by NASA.....furthermore, the eclipse of 32 AD was far more prominent and convincing than the one of 33 AD, so can you explain why your definitive bulletproof date of 33 AD is correct for the crucifixion, as opposed to the work of Sir Robert Anderson, and the historical moon phase data published by NASA and confirmed by Gavin?

    ReplyDelete
  22. I was raised pretrib, and for years never second guessed it. Later in my life I had some unique experiences that found me actually studying my Bible. The more I read, the more scriptures I came across that challenged pretrib. Way too many pieces were not gitting. I started reading other versions of the timing of the rapture, and though some of my divergent scriptures started falling in place, there were always a few I would set aside into my "I will figure it out later " pigeon hole.

    Then I would go buy yet another book. I was getting more confused the more I read mans different views. I always wished I could sit down with the author , my Bible spread out and point out directly scriptures that were divergent with their views. There is something more tangible about having a Bible opened up in front of someone, and showing your scriptures that fit or dont fit.

    Then there are all the rapture forums. Opinions on this topic have been passionately formed by each person from their up bringing, own studies, circle of friends, etc. These beliefs are engrained are its like someone who opposes anothers view is either a mole trying to cause trouble, a heathen used by Satan, or just being a pig head about it.

    It took me several months to realize that my answers came mostly by my self Bible study. Eventually I would find myself with all my divergent scriptures now fitting nicely with a template that follows the Bible.

    I have no interest showing anyone via e-mails, forums, texts, or even by phone call. What I find most effective is as mentioned previously, talking with someone in person with a Bible , where I can one on one show how it all fits.
    Many have drawn a firm line in the sand about being raptured this fall on various dates. I have no doubt that the Rev 12 sign is a significant sign in heaven, but it wont be the rapture. Too many things must occur prior to the rapture happening. I am expecting and preparing for the tribulation times ahead, so that I can be able to help lead more to Christ during those trying times.

    I hope and pray that the ones that have set dates, and find themselves on the next day after, might rethink , and not just to set another date.

    I wish we were going pretrib, but too many scriptures show me otherwise.

    May God give us all a deeper understanding.

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    Replies
    1. I agree with you Sam. I'm intra seal and had struggled with the pre trip concept for a long time. Jacob Praschs books sealed the deal for me. The difficult bit about discussing pre trib vs mid really only concerns believers not being ready should pre trib not come about, with Christians not ready for any persecution and need to be an effective witness when tribulation does come. Watch and be ready to give a reason for the hope you have in Christ.

      Ryan D

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    2. Thanks Ryan for the comment, I agree!

      Delete
  23. this is Tony in VT.//// i kinda have to wonder about multiple raptures perhaps on feast days like perry stone claims.???? it would stand to reason that so many disagree about this topic because they are all kinda right if they only knew!//// me, i don't know for sure,...who knows,...one never knows-you could be the ONE who is right! i don't know but i love this site and the wonderful people n comments on these fascinating subject matters of spirit*,...tony in vt,...Shalom.....Sam this post amazes me to no end........Thank You,...ALL...Stan if we could meet i would open my bible w/ you for sure, blessings brother

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    Replies
    1. Thanks for the kind comment Tony, and blessings to you and your family! It is indeed remarkable that so many from different backgrounds and using different methods have arrived to the same conclusions about a 2017-2014 70th week that are merely days apart....a drop in the bucket so to speak! The celestial events are screaming something at us.....and will validate the expected and prophesied real world events if they occur as expected....Shalom!

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  24. In the absence of a response from Steven, I will summarize my thoughts here......

    He could be right exactly on his dates, bulletproof and flawless.....however, I have questions that keep me from biting hook line and sinker

    If Micah 5:3 states that He will pursue His brethren after she who is labor has given birth, and if one is claiming the Woman of Rev 12 as a sign, then how does one explain the discrepancy of the obvious birth on October 15, 2017 from the date of October 20th 2017 as the start of the week?

    Secondly, how is the view flawless that the Crucifixion occurred in 33 AD, when the moon phase data and celestial alignment suggest a 32 AD Curcifixion date?

    Thirdly, what evidence is there that the gnostic torahcalendar supersedes the commonly used an know Hillel calendar, in use from the 4th century until today?

    Fourthly, How can one justify the 1290 days occurring from the front end of the 70th week, when it is clearly stated in Daniel 12 that the 1290 occurs from the AOD forward?

    Fifthly, if the sign of the Woman and Dragon from 23 Sep through 16 Oct 2017, how can one claim the onset of the 70th week is on 20 October? The celestial signs are days past.....??

    I am not saying that Sewell is wrong, but his timeline is not obvious to me, and I have a lot of questions.....

    Shalom!


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    Replies
    1. I have to say, one of the reasons I love this site is the sharing of information, and the open debate that takes place. I visit so many sites, and it seems like more and more are trying to sell themselves as having "figured it out". There are some great sites that I have stopped following because it seems like pride has taken root, and it has turned more into "look what I think I've figured out" (or better yet,,,,I have it figured out 100% guaranteed) instead of "look at what God MAY be telling us". Anyway, I am very thankful for this site and the people on it.

      Lance

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  25. Are the 9th of Av events, based on Hillel's calendar, all wrong? Do they need recalibration based on torahcalendar?

    All kinds of questions....

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  26. Thanks for your kind comment Lance, I agree with you, and I would give all the credit to Gary, Greg, Jeff, and the rest of the Unsealed team for creating and maintaining an environment where others can discuss in a brotherly manner!

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  27. I just noticed a couple of things I wished I had put in the video, triggered by an observation from Ellen....

    There are 33 days from the solar eclipse 21 August 2017 to the Heavenly Sign of the Woman 23 Sept 2017

    There are 33 days from the solar eclipse 8 April 2024 to the potential Heavenly sign of the 7 angels, last day is 11 May 2024

    There are 45 days from the eclipse 2017 to Sukkot 5 Oct 2017, the last feast of the calendar year
    There are 45i days from the eclipse 2024 to Pesach Sheni 22 May 2024 at twilight

    Both eclipses preceed the Heavenly signs by 33 days, and correspond to a Jewish feast day

    There is a Bethlehem star conjunction in Taurus on 22/23 May, the Day of Pesach Sheni, the Passover of 2nd Chances.....Zedek/Venus conjunct in Taurus, announcing the impending return of Messiah to Rule and Reign

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