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Don't Hit Your Dome on the Dome!

 


Is the Earth Flat?

A debate that has resurfaced in a big way in recent years regards whether or not the earth is flat. While proponents of a flat earth come from a variety of religious backgrounds, many have used the Bible in an attempt to defend their view, suggesting that a literal interpretation of Scripture necessarily causes one to believe in a flat earth. However, the flat earth view is not necessary with a literal hermeneutic, nor does it withstand scientific scrutiny. Here are the reasons:

1. The Bible does not actually state that the earth is flat. This is a huge, gaping hole in the argument that a literal interpretation of Scripture necessitates a flat earth. Without such direct scriptural evidence, flat-earth proponents are left with interpreting certain figurative passages of Scripture in such a way as suits their theory. Passages that are emphasized include those that speak of the earth having four corners (e.g., Isa. 11:12; Rev. 7:1; 20:8), being set on pillars (e.g., 1 Sam. 2:8), and being unmoved (e.g., Ps. 104:5).

The problem with their view is that the Bible also speaks of the earth as a circle (Isa. 40:22; cf. Prov. 8:27). A circle doesn’t have corners. And a circle is the shape that a sphere appears from any single vantage point. In addition, the biblical words for “earth” and “land” are the same. The land of planet earth does have corners, such as the extremities of continents and so forth.

In regard to the passages that speak of pillars or the earth not being moved, we also have passages that say the earth is suspended over nothing (Job. 26:7) and does move (Isa. 24:20; Nah. 1:5; Heb. 12:25–29). Thus, we can reconcile the full counsel of Scripture in that the planet itself is not moved from its stable course and orbit, and the land of the earth is not moved from the vantage point of an earth dweller. The pillars of the earth are a figurative symbol, but if taken literally, perhaps a description of the natural structures that undergird the surface of the land since the earth isn’t actually hollow.

In summary, flat-earth theory has no explicit scriptural support, nor is it any more literal than the alternative.

2. Other celestial objects appear to be spheres, including the sun, moon, planets, and stars. They’re not just simple lights in the sky. And in fact, we can actually observe many of these objects rotate on their axes. This can't merely be dismissed as an illusion by NASA. Decent backyard telescopes reveal the curvature of the moon and other objects. They also reveal rotation and even the [also] spheroid moons of Saturn and Jupiter.

3. The earth casts a circular shadow on the moon. Shadows are cast on the underside of clouds when the sun is lower in the horizon.

4. Objects over the horizon don’t suddenly pop into view, but appear to emerge from below the horizon because of the earth’s curvature. This is direct, observable evidence.

5. Even with no obstacles, an observer at ground level cannot see the same distance as an observer higher than him. This is because the earth is round. If it was flat, then an observer at ground level would see the same distance as an observer who is miles up in the air. Again, direct, observable evidence.

6. The argument of a mass, coordinated deception of evidence is necessary to defend the flat earth view. There is substantial, observable proof that the earth is a sphere: circumnavigation via aircraft, circumnavigation via ship, pictures taken from thousands of satellites and spacecraft, and so forth. The "it's just CGI" argument doesn't work. There are literally hundreds of thousands of pictures and videos of the earth from space, and not just from NASA, but from every nation that performs rocket and satellite launches.

7. Gravity, the force that attracts a body toward the center of the earth, or toward any other physical body having mass, doesn't work with a flat earth—like at all. In fact, flat-earth proponents have had to concoct a theory that the earth disc is actually moving vertically through space so as to replicate gravity. Ironically, the only way they can [sort of] reconcile gravity is by denying 1. that the earth is not moved, and 2. that the earth rests on pillars—the two key flat earth assumptions they began with. The physically observable spheroid of earth not only reconciles gravity, but also a literal interpretation of what the Bible says! (See #1 again).

8. You can physically measure the curvature of the earth on a body of water. No NASA needed! All you need to know is 1. how far an object on the horizon is from you, 2. how tall the top of the object is from water level, and 3. how high your eyes are from water level. As the object moves away from you, it will always [like 100% of the time] drop below the horizon because the earth is curved. (See here and here for how to replicate the experiment yourself).

9. It only takes about 12,000 miles to circumnavigate Antarctica. That's roughly one-fifth the length it should be if Antarctica was actually an ice wall at the edge of the world.

10. Belief in a spherical earth is nothing new. It wasn't started by NASA or even Columbus. It was well established at the time of Christ, and even some 4–5 centuries beforehand (see Plato, Aristotle, and Eratosthenes, among others). Just because many believed in a flat earth thousands of years ago, doesn't mean everyone did. In fact, it's now pretty well established that a spherical earth was a strong assumption by many of the scholars of antiquity.

In conclusion, the idea that a spherical earth is a new theory and a Satanic deception is categorically false. Furthermore, the idea that the Bible states the earth is flat is also categorically false. Deriving a flat earth from the relevant biblical passages takes a great deal of proof-texting, decontextualizing, and fudging of the data. It's no more a literal interpretation of the text than is a spherical earth—in fact, far less so in my humble opinion.

I would strongly exhort friends and fellow believers to steer clear of this faulty hypothesis. There is definitely a deception going on, but it isn't that the earth is round. It's a deception causing many to believe in something without any scientific support, and, honestly, without any real biblical support either—to believe in and defend something that is causing the world to quickly dismiss everything else we're saying, including prophecy and the good news of Jesus Christ. Don't jump on this bandwagon.

Paraphrasing Lee Brainard: The flat-earth-and-dome theory reflects a god of less power and glory. The rotating globe surrounded by the infinite expanse of an infinite universe with trillions of galaxies to inherit and explore reflects the infinite glory of the infinite God.

In other words, the cosmos of flat-earth theory is small, trivial, and rather unremarkable. The real universe as we know it is infinitely bigger and infinitely greater, reflecting the creative power of our infinite God.





Final note: I recognize that many dear brothers and sisters truly believe in a flat earth. I want to be clear: this is not intended to be a personal slam in any way. I respect others' views, but have felt this issue becoming a big stumbling block for many both inside and outside of the Church. In fact, a recent post I made along these lines prompted some to even suggest those that believe in a round earth are believing the lie and the deception and perhaps may not even be saved. This is now becoming a Gospel issue and that means those making such claims are causing tremendous harm to themselves and others.

You don't have to believe in a flat earth to take the Bible literally. You don't have to believe in a flat earth to see the real end-times Satanic deception that is unfolding before our very eyes, leading right to global cataclysm.

For further study, check out this list of "easy observations and experiments" that confirm that the earth is round.

And for a thorough (and accurate) study of the verses often used as "evidence" of a flat earth, take a look at this detailed analysis by Dr. Robert Carter and Dr. Jonathan Sarfati.

Post A Comment

138 comments:

  1. AMEN. This is an insightful, gracious, and timely article. Thank you, Gary.

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    1. IM(v)HO I believe the four corners in scripture are north, east, south, and west. "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree." Rev. 7:1

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    2. Very good point!

      Hey, I read something really interesting yesterday: three independent analysis all put the geographical center of the land of the earth somewhere in Turkey or between Turkey and Egypt. In other words, the geographical center is in the land of the Bible, not far from Jerusalem. It's in an area of land about 1/450th the surface of the earth.

      Hugely unlikely that the geographical center would be so close to the Holy Land by random chance.

      We can sort of think of the Holy Land as the center of the compass.

      Here is an article on the topic

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    3. Hi Hillary!

      I agree and also believe that the four corners are more a compass reference than anything else. While form is king to us in the west, function is more important in the east. Looking at the four corners of the world as though a function it changes how we understand the world. The farthest reaches. Distant points. Opposing sides, etc...

      Still looking forward to that Kingdom Cake party! Everyone is invited!

      Hugs to Samuel and the rest of the family,

      PR

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    4. Gary, I'm not surprised but I am excited to learn that! It makes so much sense, too!

      Hi PR!!!! Great to hear from you. And saaaaame, brother! It will be so wonderful! Blessings to you and your loved ones.

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  2. Thanks, Gary! I agree 100%. One more thing....the flat earth people will never commit to THE MAP. Any one map they will stand by as true and accurate. If they would, we could quickly and easily show the ridiculousness of it.

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    2. Very good point Jim! Their hypothesis isn't actually testable because they will not agree on a theory.

      For instance: they say the Bible indicates that the earth is stationary and resting on pillars, so cannot be round, but then they turn around and project the earth rapidly flying upward through space with no pillars at all so as to make gravity work. The pot calling the kettle black.

      Or claiming the spinning earth ball is a NASA deception, when it's been taught and believed for 2,500 years at least.

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    3. Carl Sagan - Cosmos - Eratosthenes

      The story of Eratosthenes (276-194 BC) who worked out the circumference of the Earth to a high degree of precision in the Third Century BC.

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  4. Why do we need more than 3 satellites to calculate GPS? we should only need 3 if it were flat.

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    1. Triangulation - only three GPS satellites are needed for location. But, they aren't "overhead" for very long, so a fourth and fifth may be used as the confidence level of the fist and second (for example) travel farther away.

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  5. I've had people call me a government shill for "claiming" that I live in Australia. I was explaining that I can look south from my place, and see the axis point that the stars rotate around in a clockwise manner, as opposed to the north star which stars travel around in an anti-clockwise manner.

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  6. Excellent and timely message, Gary. I share your concerns on the topic and what message it sends to those who are seeking and/or asking BIG faith questions.

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  7. Mr. Gary, for years I thought that " Flat Earth Believers " was some kind of a 'joke' until I met one. After a couple of awkward conversations regarding 'the topic ', we both have dropped specific discussions of 'anything ' and simply avoided each other as much as possible . She avoids me, as much as she can, and I have done the same, in respect for her choice. Her job requirements require a certain level of polite interaction, and that is the only framework that I have ever come in contact with her. She clearly has had a difficult life, and seeks friends and supporters, but when I responded with empathy, she began sharing her 'flat earth philosophy'. When I did not agree, she was offended and resorted to calling me a 'religious bigot '. There are many divisions that are growing among the peoples of this world, that even the most sincere and non-combative intentions can overcome. These divisions lead to isolation, pain and loss of humanity. I will persist in my dealing with this life , as best I can; honestly looking forward to the "soon arrival of Living and Eternal King and Priest Jesus Christ ". In HIM and HIM Alone will this world be what it was created and intended for ! MARANATHA !

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  8. Your analysis is apt, but somewhat incomplete. While the physics of the Earth and Universe are well established, there has clearly been some slight of hand involving the world powers and the spaceflight/satellite programs. Take a look at Jack "Marvel" Parsons (founder of JPL) and his connections to the occult, L. Ron Hubbard (inventor of "Dianetics and Scientology), and NASA's spaceflight programs. Consider Parsons' mysterious death at age 37, and the shadowy presence of his father (the senior "Marvel") who may have had connections to the Defense and Intelligence community. Take a look at Werner Von Braun's connections to the Nazi Party. Von Braun was brought to the US via Project Paperclip to launch the USA's rocketry program. Remember the Nazi's were themselves essentially occultists. Take a look at the consistent use of false gods (truly the Daimones of the air - see C.S. Lewis) in the naming of NASA's rocketry and moon landing programs. Take a look at Stanley Kubrick's recorded admission of monkey business involving the filming of the "moon landings". Take a look at the considerable evidence that the astronauts who were killed in the Challenger explosion in fact did not die, and later assumed new identities. This event reeks of Deep State Intelligence service manipulation. It seems to me (and others) that some hidden agency has been manipulating the human psyche to accept the idea of space travel via both "real world" events and media (radio, film, and television) for some time. This would include the "alien abduction" and UFO phenomenon. The Flat Earth movement, while poorly conceived, seems to be a reaction to this manipulation as much as it is a questioning of legitimate scientific analysis and established physical laws. Therefore, I think we can sympathize with the adherents' frustrations without ourselves falling into this trap. I also think some go too far in trying to mold Scripture to fit the findings of modern science. Hugh Ross would be an example. Some things must be taken on faith alone.

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  10. This is an interesting topic that I recently looked into. There are some really intelligent people who truly believe this. Heres some trivia though that I find to be really strange.

    1.Scientists tell us that the earth is orbiting the sun at 66.6 thousand miles per hour. 666?

    2. They also tell us that the earth is tilted on its axis 23.4 degrees. Subtract that from 90 degrees and you get 66.6 again. Coincidence? Perhaps.

    After looking into it there are two reasons why the earth cannot be flat.

    1.A person from the southern hemisphere cannot see Polaris, the north star because the earth is in the way. And a person from the north cannot see the southern cross. If the earth were flat you should be able to see both from anywhere on the 'flat' plane.

    2. If you look at the flat earth map South America and Australia are on opposite sides of the map. If the earth were flat you would need to travel north from S. America over the western U.S. to eventually reach the down underland. A very long journey. But pilots do not go north, they go southwest. The trip takes 14 to 16 hours. According to flat earth model it would 35 to 40.

    With that said though I do think its possible that the moon landings did not happen. It was a movie production.

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    1. 66.6 DEGREES!!!

      That is awesome! I've never heard that one.

      Thanks for sharing!

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  11. Not related to the flat earthers, but 70 years ago today (10/14): https://takemeback.to/14-October-1952

    "The United Nations begins work in the new United Nations building in New York City, designed by Le Corbusier and Oscar Niemeyer."

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  12. This is a bible study right; this is just two examples.

    The Sundial Of Ahaz
    Study link:
    http://www.biblefellowshipunion.co.uk/2008/May_Jun/Sundial.htm

    2 Kings 20:9-11

    20:009 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?

    20:010 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.

    20:011 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

    Joshua 10:12-13

    10:012 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

    10:013 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

    Now, I don't care what you believe, that's your choice.
    My Faith does not depend on what I believe (intellectually) to be so.

    Take the blinders of tradition off, then you can see the big picture.
    Look at everything that you have been taught, with new eyes.

    Question everything!

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    1. That's why its call a miracle - it can't happen unless God intervenes and does something Not Natural. Therefore, a miracle can't be used as proof of the normal way the rules of the universe operate.

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  13. Good stuff. The Flat Earth idea really requires someone to put their head in the sand about reality.

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    1. The reality is they have the technology for faster than light travel, but they can't go anywhere with it.
      They can't get through the firmament: they've tried operation Dominic and fishbowl.
      The Earth is stationary, the Heavens are not. Thats biblical by the way!
      They keep you confused with CGI imagery and authoritative talk.

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    3. Sherrill777, you made an excellent point. And you can be assured that it was appreciated by most of us.

      Jeremy

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  14. Gary,

    I have a couple questions for you. Firstly:

    1.) Tell me the formula for calculating earth curvature and what the standard calculation is.

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    1. Ian not Gary but Here ya go.

      https://www.metabunk.org/curve/

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    2. Gregg doesn't believe the Earth curves, so don't rely on that. But to answer, it changes, depending on distance from equator, direction, and tidal bulge. So there's no one exact calculation for curve in any one spot.

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  15. I think its possible that the truth on this could be somewhere in between. The earth is a globe but is not rotating at 1000 mph or circling the sun at 67,000 mph as we've been taught but is immobile. Which means that the sun, moon and stars move around us.

    Also there could be an impenetrable barrier up there which means we did not go to the moon. I have read about operation fishbowl. High altitude nuclear tests about 60 yrs. ago. Some people think that the military was trying to blast a hole in the crystalline barrier.
    Id like to know what they planned to do if successful.
    The name 'fishbowl' is interesting. It implies that we live in a contained environment.
    Just thought i'd add this to the mix.
    Whichever is true, Gods creation is awesome!

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  16. Flat or Ball earth theory?

    Is a matter of choice, whichever you are comfortable with or even somewhere in-between, makes no difference to me.

    But my experience with those who believe the ball earth theory get very defensive about what they have been taught when you suggest a different oppinion.

    The Truth is easy and needs no defense.

    That episode in the bible between Satin, Eve and Adam, has not changed one bit.

    Challenging God’s word with Authoritative speech is a tactic by the Prince of the Power of the Air.

    Satin is like a child having a temper tantrum, he is not winning so what does he do, he over throws the table screaming and crying (if your playing chess).

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  17. I pray for Flat Earthers every single day. More specifically, Acts 9:18. I think it's literally the least we could do. lol

    Jeremy

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  18. On the 8th of February 2018, the company Exalt claimed a new distance record for microwave transmission. Microwave transmission is always line-of-sight. The previous record was 225 Km, their present claim is 235 Km or 146 miles. Their transmission is from a 50-foot high tower on a beach in Cyprus, over sea to a similar tower on a beach in Lebanon:

    You will notice that the previous record was only five miles less. It is easy to confirm that the company Exalt exists and is offering its equipment for sale. However, their achievement completely destroys the possibility of the Earth being a sphere, in spite of what we have been told all of our lives. The calculation for the curvature of a 25,000 mile circumference sphere can be accomplished easily on the web (or less easily using paper and a pencil) The Antenna is 2.38 miles below line of sight or 12,575 feet.

    This is further shown by aircraft flight paths.

    But how is this a Gospel issue, who is pushing who?

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    1. How is this shown by aircraft flight paths?

      Jeremy

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    2. The flight from Johannesburg to Perth should be a straightforward 11 hour flight.
      But the actual flight path stops for refueling at either Dubai, Hong Kong or Malaysia with a flight time of more than 18 hours. On a globe Earth that is mad, but it is realistic if the Earth is flat.

      Then consider the flight from Santiago to Sydney – it diverts to Los Angles increasing the expected flight time of 15 hours to 27 hours.
      That flight path is shown not to be total madness if the Earth is flat.

      I got this one from Amazon:
      Gleason’s New Standard Map Of The World
      On the Projection of J.S. Christopher, Modern College.
      Blackheath England, scientifically and Practically correct.
      Patent Allowed November 15, 1892
      Application made in England , Canada, France, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Austria.

      I have it on my Refrigerator, makes for a nice conversation piece.

      All this has to do with Earth curvature. And Military specs manuals flight path’s of aircraft, bullets, rocket, Missile, trajectory are based on Flat Earth they don’t factor in curvature of the Earth.

      Another thought comes to mind though, why do we need all these cell phone towers or ground based transmitters criss crossing the earth, if we have so many Satellites that can do the job so much better, if they even exist at all?

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    3. 13.5 hours from Sydney to Santiago nonstop.

      These flights happened regularly before the pandemic. They're restarting at the end of this month.

      https://simpleflying.com/qantas-restores-sydney-santiago-flights/

      It's roughly 7,000 miles from Sydney to Santiago and 13.5 is the exact expected flight time for that distance on a globe.

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    4. Same is true for nonstop flights from South Africa: both to Perth and Sydney, nonstop flights will be restored 11/1.

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    6. Gregg,

      Airplanes have to follow the routes that are APPROVED. Not the routes that are straightest or prettiest. I keep telling you how wrong you are, but as usual, you do not listen! There are ETOPS standards for fewer engines, EOW rules for over-water, and a thousand other considerations that factor into routes. Do you have the fuel? Do you have a weather contingency alternate within range? A second or third alternate? Do you meet the criteria for magnetic Polar cutout regions or temperature restrictions? Do you have permission to land in this country or that? Does your airplane make sense economically on this route? Do you have planes, crews, gates, and market share in these cities? Are you flying directly into a strong jetstream? On and on and on.

      You have no idea.

      Jeremy

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    7. Hi Gary

      Granted some of this information is dated a bit.
      The Full Documentary of the Flat Earth Proofs 29 Reasons to question Your World is here and that was in 2017. In the Documentary is the Military proof.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO0a0_MqTTc

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    8. Jeremy

      Point being if you plot those points on a the Gleason’s flat earth map and do the same on a globe map, you can see the difference and it doesn't make sense on a globe surface.

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  19. Gregg, if you can explain how and why light, which is an EM phenomenon, just like microwaves which are a specific part of the EM spectrum, can travel through physical media, bending around curves, sending data from one end of the earth to the next, I will explain why your microwave example proves nothing. Mathematics is not necessary but more than welcome (especially in the realm of operational physics)

    I am not a frequent contributor to online discussions any more, but I do read all of the articles at Unsealed and many of the comments. I have seen that your grasp of the Biblical text is good. However, with all due respect, your insight to the physical world seems to be less informed.

    -Joe

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    1. Thanks for the note Joe Bova

      There is the matter of a ship sailing away from the land and steering straight out into an ocean. It appears that the ship goes down over a curved ocean, disappearing gradually until only the top of the superstructure is seen. That looks convincing until you look at the ship through a telescope. When you do that, you find that you can see all of the ship again, right down to the water level.

      Personally, I think that we need to be very careful when considering visual observations which presume that light travels in straight lines, as that is not always the case. For example, it has been shown that light does not always travel in straight lines. Parallel to the ground it is probable that rays of light are straight but they are definitely not always straight when angled upwards.

      Joseph Cater tested that fact using an altimeter which was set to zero at sea level and then driven to the top of a mountain at 42.5 degrees North latitude. The mountain was supposed to have an elevation of 9,269 feet. The altimeter reading agreed closely with the established elevations of towns along the route; elevations which were from 1000 to 4000 feet. However, at the top of the mountain, the reading was only 8,800 feet. The fact that the altimeter was accurate at all places except the top of the mountain (whose official height was estimated by triangulation), shows that light rays at the top of a mountain are not straight. So, perhaps using a telescope to see a ship which appears to have passed over a horizon is not reliable as the rays of light might have been curved parallel to the surface of the earth. Personally, I think that is unlikely but how can anyone test if those light rays are curved or not?

      As another example, consider the London to Liverpool railway line. It passes through Birmingham about half way along the route. The journey is about 180 miles and if the Earth were a globe, then the curvature of the Earth would mean that Birmingham would be some 5,400 feet higher than either London or Liverpool. That, of course, is ridiculous. I seriously doubt that a train could manage the journey if that were the case. Common sense tells you immediately that there is no such curvature, and that shows clearly that the Earth is not a globe as described by the people who are lying to us.

      Then we have the account published in the 1931 edition of Popular Science which recounts the experiences of a scientist who rose ten miles into the air in an airtight sphere and who reported that he could see the whole Earth and that it was flat with raised edges. There is, of course, the problem that he might be lying, but it does clear up the Bible mention of the “four corners” of the Earth which is not really possible with a sphere.

      We have been told that the Earth is a sphere of some 25,000 miles circumference at the equator. It appears that the notion of a spherical Earth did not occur until the fifteenth century, and we have the problem that we do not have a single photograph of Earth taken from space. There is, of course, no point in mentioning the ridiculously faked supposed Moon landing in 1969 by the Americans.

      Then there is the Moon which is supposed to reflect sunlight and be eclipsed by the Earth’s shadow falling on the moon. Err,r,r no, The moon does not reflect sunlight, as moonlight is a completely different type of light, nor is it eclipsed by the Earth’s shadow, as you can see some eclipses when both the Sun and the Moon are visible at the same time and that is physically impossible. The Moon has its own light.

      2 Timothy: 2:023 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

      We could go on and on like a Tennis Match but that would gender more strife.

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    2. Gregg,

      If I were to tell you the Bible says that God helps those who help themselves, or perhaps money is the root of all evil, and did not provide a biblical reference, you would call me out, and rightfully so. This takes us directly to your quote from Timothy.

      Since I asked you one question that you did not answer, what should I assume? Is it that you do not know or do not care to find out? All of your examples above 'appear' to be things cut and pasted (or word smith-ed) out of other sources that claim that the earth is flat; there is no science there, just statements with no rational or sources. I claim that the answer to my question can debunk most of those arguments (some require a different approach).

      Again I ask for the answer to my original question. If you answer it, I will happily provide references that are not tied to any government agency or out my mouth (after all, who am I) that can address every one of your objection the understanding that the earth is a spheroid.

      If you do not answer that question, I would love to discuss this with you at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb or shortly thereafter since we will have an eternity to explore the Lords incredible Creation.

      BTW, there are two Bibles, the written Word or scripture, and his Creation: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" Romans 1:20 [KJV]

      -Joe

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    4. Joe, thank you for tackling this. I don't think Gregg will be convinced, but it's important that others who read this thread see that he's standing on a foundation of sand in this area.

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    5. Yes, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still (or something like that).

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    6. Its easier to believe a lie than to convince someone that they have been lied to.

      Actually there are three testaments, one in the stars, one in stone, and one in word.
      The one in stone is still there, a pillar of witness in the land of Egypt in the middle and on the border there of.

      Most of what is taught in schools as far as science, technology and such K through 12 and beyond is science fiction. So what most like to spout off as truth is regurgitated science fiction.

      If your revenue is dependent on your lies being gospel and you control the information
      wouldn't you fight like hell to keep it.

      Start thinking for yourself, I don't need to be converted you need to convince yourselves of what you believe.

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    7. @Gregg “Most of what is taught in schools as far as science, technology and such K through 12 and beyond is science fiction. So what most like to spout off as truth is regurgitated science fiction.”

      This is actually very true in some respects – evilution and most cosmology. However, I have taught 6th to12th grade students physics subjects such as acoustics, electronics, electromagnetism, optics, and thermodynamics, all of which are needed to engineer the technology we use to communicate today. All of the concepts and theory that I taught were validated with repeatable experiments, many of which can be done at home. So not all of what is taught is a lie, just the anti-God stuff. This teaching activity was all voluntary so I did not make a living doing it, it was done so these students could understand Gods wonderful creation and I could give something back.
      Not sure if you addressing me directly with all of your comments but I will say that it was through many years of studying operational science that I became convinced that the Bible and Science can be thoroughly harmonized – not two stories – one unified story and that is why I have placed my full faith and trust in our Savior Jesus Christ. If the Bible did not agree with what my eye and ears could sense, then it would not have been for me.

      For what it’s worth, the conclusions I have reached regarding what science is true and what is demonic deception are not based on what others have said or what is in an isolated text book or internet site, they are conclusion I have reached based on diligent study (the same is true with regard to the Bible). However, since this is not a science board I will not tell you what I believe but point you to a couple of places that you can read explanations that I mostly agree with regard to the flat earth idea. Note, these are not meant to convince anyone but to illustrate that there are powerful arguments refuting the idea:

      The flat earth myth

      A flat earth, and other nonsense

      Thanks and God Bless,

      -Joe

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  20. I hope we are not talking about this at the Wedding Feast.

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  22. From fivedoves.com . . .

    "The name 'Atzeret' is actually used most in the Talmud to refer to the holiday of Shavuot. Shavuot can be seen as the 'completion' of Pesach - for Pesach, commemorating the Exodus, represents our 'physical' birth as a nation, while Shavuot, commemorating our receiving of the Torah, represents our 'spiritual' birth..."

    With a Shemini Atzeret spiritual birth, my mind immediately goes to Revelation's birth of the child in Chapter 12.

    "Shemini Atzeret is a holy day in its own right and the quote from Numbers indicates that trumps are blown on all the holy days. So, since Shemini Atzeret is the LAST holy day till spring the LAST trump is blown on that day."

    Waiting eagerly for that. And the chance to see the face of Jesus when He hears His first Flat Earth questions!

    Jeremy

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    1. Ha! I have to say, Jesus is going to get to display some of that infinite patience with us humans asking all sorts of ridiculous questions. I'm certainly looking forward to that!

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    2. Me too, Jeremy. Me too!

      Shemini Atzeret here and already the day is late in Jerusalem. Simchat Torah is about to come with the setting sun. Always hopeful that today may be the Day.

      Blessings!

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  24. I’m agnostic on the issue. However your article illustrates that you don’t care to fairly represent the other side, nor do you attempt to rebut the deeper biblical and scientific contentions to the Copernican model.

    You said: The Bible does not actually state that the earth is flat.

    The Bible doesn’t actually state the earth is a sphere either.

    You said: Without such direct scriptural evidence, flat-earth proponents are left with interpreting certain figurative passages of Scripture in such a way as suits their theory.

    This is what you’re doing, such stating that four corners allude to the extremities concerning corners of the continents? If you go that route, there are far more than four corners. This is a wild stretch here and I feel you know it. Dr Heiser has introduced a flat earth like structure as the literal interpretation of Hebrew scripture, and although he doesn’t believe in a flat earth, you’ve given the theory far less credence than it deserves.

    You said: The problem with their view is that the Bible also speaks of the earth as a circle (Isa. 40:22; cf. Prov. 8:27). A circle doesn’t have corners. And a circle is the shape that a sphere appears from any single vantage point.

    Nobody in the flat earth camp talks of a circle having corners. I could argue the exact same straw man, “a sphere doesn’t have corners!” Obviously, you have a deeper explanation to justify your view on what the corners are, just as the flat earthers do. If God were to look down upon the flat earth model from his footstool, from that perspective it does look like a circle.

    You said: In regard to the passages that speak of pillars or the earth not being moved, we also have passages that say the earth is suspended over nothing (Job. 26:7) and does move (Isa. 24:20; Nah. 1:5; Heb. 12:25–29). Thus, we can reconcile the full counsel of Scripture in that the planet itself is not moved from its stable course and orbit, and the land of the earth is not moved from the vantage point of an earth dweller.

    Isa 24:20 KJV states that the earth SHALL reel to and fro, the context of Isaiah 24 overall is a prophetic passage concerning God’s future judgment of the earth. This is the first time I’ve seen this passage used to justify the earth moving. All commentators speak of this as God’s judgment on the earth, or how sin is affecting its inhabitants. Nahum’s passage is also concerning God’s judgment. In fact, in the same verse it’s speaking of earthquakes, and of course the earth heaves as the result of this. This is set during the actual moment of God’s judgment. The earth heaves because of his judgment, but you decide to extract the verse and make it fixed to fit modern scientific theory. In Hebrews, stating that God’s voice “shaking the earth” is somehow parallel to the idea of the orbit of the earth is a stretch in the mildest sense.
    Your other points of contention illustrate that you have NOT in fact given the flat earth perspective it’s fair shake (by shake I don’t mean the earth is orbiting ๐Ÿ˜‰). These are the typical surface level contentions that have already been answered by Skiba and others. Why not actually rebut THE answers made to your other contentions? It seems you slapped together a quick article, rather than giving the theory a legitimate critique.

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    1. Hi Glenn, please avoid personal attacks on our site. We want to set a very different tone here. Not the Wild Wild West of the World Wide Web. You can click "Features" above the comment section to see our posting rules if you're curious. I'm great with disagreement and I'm very comfortable with others believing in a flat earth if they want to. What spurred this article on to begin with is some behavior I witnessed on Facebook showing that an increasing number of "Christians" are making FE a litmus test, which can quickly become a false gospel.

      Regarding "The Bible doesn’t actually state the earth is a sphere either."

      I don't argue otherwise. My point is that the textual data is minimal and isn't unambiguous at all and can be interpreted with either paradigm. The primary [religious] argument for FE is that the Old Testament teaches it, but 1. no Scripture plainly says the earth is flat, 2. "the circle of the earth" and "He hangs the earth on nothing," fit well with round-earth model, and 3. the handful of Scriptures, if used to push a FE, end up causing contradictions with other passages (e.g., set on pillars vs hung on nothing; earth will NEVER be moved vs the earth will reel and be shaken).

      FE doesn't reconcile all the data in my opinion. Others disagree and that's fine.

      ---

      "Dr Heiser has introduced a flat earth like structure as the literal interpretation of Hebrew scripture"

      Sure. Some think the OT teaches a FE. Others disagree (including all the biblical scholars at AiG, ICR, etc). Heiser also has completely unique takes on biblical hermeneutics and eschatology, claiming "peer review," and then goes on tirades against futurism and the pre-trib rapture, attacking the intelligence of those who disagree with him.

      But irregardless, Heiser doesn't believe in a FE, nor does he think God was confused. As a Hebrew scholar, he recognizes that the language is often idiomatic and no Hebrew scholar *ever* would suggest every phrase in the OT is woodenly literal. That's not the way any language works.

      Again, to be clear, my argument is not that the OT "proves" a spherical earth, but rather that it allows for a spherical earth, the data is minimal at best on this topic, and a FE interpretation of the OT leaves unreconciled contradictions.

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    2. "Nobody in the flat earth camp talks of a circle having corners. I could argue the exact same straw man, “a sphere doesn’t have corners!”"

      But they do talk about the earth having corners, citing the Bible, and I've yet to see a FE model of a square earth. This is part of the inconsistency in the FE camp. They are attacking the spherical earth (of which we have hundreds of thousands of pictures and videos of, unless you agree with the argument all of it is a vast international conspiracy for 50+ years involving 1. every space agency, 2. every corporation that does rocket launches, 3. every person involved with the aforementioned, 4. every pilot or sailor who claimed the earth was round after circumnavigation, etc) for not having corners, but then propose a flat disc earth, which also doesn't have corners.

      The point is, whatever the Bible is indicating by corners, it doesn't fit FE's criticism of a spherical earth.

      ---

      "Isa 24:20 KJV states that the earth SHALL reel to and fro, the context of Isaiah 24 overall is a prophetic passage concerning God’s future judgment of the earth."

      It doesn't matter. Psalm 104:5 says the earth shall "never" be moved. I checked the Hebrew to be sure, and it's actually superlative: "forever and ever" or "for all time and forever."

      ---

      "This is the first time I’ve seen this passage used to justify the earth moving."

      Interesting. I found examples rather quickly, including this article:

      "One flat-Earth proponent tried to persuade me that Psalm 104:5, which says Earth’s foundations “should not be moved,” means that Earth cannot spin like a classroom globe because spinning is a type of movement. The Hebrew verb here for “moved” is mรดt, meaning to be shaken, moved, or overthrown. A bicycle frame holds its wheels so they will not shake back and forth, move from their mounts, or get thrown from the frame—yet the wheels spin. This verse does not teach an utterly rigid earth. If it did, then we would have to deny earthquakes, hundreds of parallax measurements, and Scriptures like Job 9:6!3 Instead, it simply describes a stable earth. Earth’s gyroscopic motion gives it the very stability that Psalm 104:5 teaches."

      Note Job 9:6:

      "Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble."

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    3. "Why not actually rebut THE answers made to your other contentions?"

      I always love these extremely open-ended dismissals. I still stand behind every point in my article.

      In terms of contentions, Gregg raised no non-stop flights between South Africa and Australia and Australia and South America. I refuted that. Not only have there been non-stop flights, but there will be in the future and the flight times align perfectly with the globe. A flat earth would massively elongate these flight times.

      Not sure what else to contend with. Austin brought up a great question about visibility and earth curvature—how can city skylines be seen across large bodies of water.

      The popular "evidence" presented showing skylines still visible across large bodies of water (Chicago from across Lake Michigan, for example), show exactly what would be expected. The lower buildings and the lower parts of all the buildings, as well as the treeline are below the horizon because... the earth is round. You can read more here.

      ---

      I could continue the argument going back and forth on all the points endlessly. At some point we just have to agree to disagree and make absolutely sure we never make this a spiritual litmus test. 50 more points could be added to the 10 provided. Coriolis effect for instance. And yes, gravity has been proven. Gravity waves are literally measured. We also see smaller *spheroids* in space orbit larger *spheroids*, plainly demonstrating that larger mass controls smaller mass even though nothing is visibly connecting them.

      Someone mentioned to me that the moon has to produce its own light according to Gen. 1:14. The Bible does call the moon a light, but doesn't say anything about producing its own light.

      Another contention was that there is a separate Hebrew word for "ball." ื“ּื•ּืจ is etymologically along the lines of a heap or pile. Ball is idiomatic and more technically, of late origin.

      Hebrew is much more a perspective language than allows in these technical debates we get into. The earth *is* a circle from the perspective of a stationary outside observer. Likewise, the moon *is* a circle from our vantage point on earth, even though we can literally go into our backyard and see its craters - easily with a telescope. Likewise, other planets, which we can see rotate on their axes. They *are* circles from a fixed vantage point, even though we know they are *technically* spheres.

      The Bible allows for perspective and can still be interpreted literally without resorting to flat earth.

      Regarding objects disappearing below the horizon: they don't just get smaller until they disappear. They literally appear to "sink," just as would be expected with a round earth.

      Also, the horizon is not actually eye level. Never is. It drops below eye level very subtly. And the curvature of the earth, though subtle, can be directly photographed.

      here

      Blessings.

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  25. Glenn,

    Kudos for articulately challenging the points raised in the original article. Simplistically, I really want to know how it is possible to see cities across large bodies of water where curvature should render this impossible? I.e, Chicago from Michigan, etc.

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    1. It called refraction/reflection based on atmospheric layers, some thermal, some chemical. I can get technical if desired but here is a simple explanation: https://swmichigan.org/view-of-chicago. (i know there is a way to make links clickable but I cannot recall off hand :-)

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  26. Some random points to address Flat Earth arguments.

    Lake Michigan is not that wide. Really, it's not.

    Cities with tall buildings can be seen from pretty far away, and especially with conducive lighting conditions. More than 100+ miles is not problematic at night or in clear weather, assuming a flat surface (actually curved downward as well.)

    There is no impermeable barrier around us, at least not within our local galaxy. Objects such as Halley's comet and meteorites prove this every single day.

    Faster Than Light (FTL) travel does not exist. There are concepts out there, but all untested and untestable, just like time travel via General Relativity. There are no working models and there never will be, since Jesus will have started His party long before human beings figure out how to takeoff, fly out to Pluto at the speed of light, and then slow down enough to make it back to the earth unscathed. Or alive, even.

    The Exalt microwave example is useless. Industry and science are always pushing the boundaries, and usually just a little bit at a time. But with no educated analysis of the details, their accomplishment means nothing. Did they use multiple radios? Did they find a way to use TropiSpherical scatter? Did they have fiber connections and relaying repeaters? Or did they simply build their 50 ft antennae on . . . wait for it . . . a hill? That's what everybody else does when they want to increase comms range.

    Operations Fishbowl, Dominic, and others were nothing more than examples of the military testing high altitude nukes for the purpose of calculating fallout, particle travel, delivery methods, etc. They are a simple people with a simple purpose . . . death, destruction, and conquest for the purpose of control. And just because they don't consult you over top-secret tech, it does not mean that they're communing with aliens and breaking the chains of reality every time you turn around. Ironically, these people tend to be the least creative examples of humanity.

    The earth is absolutely spinning right now, and very fast at that, empirically speaking. No, you don't feel it, but that's because of gravity and relative motion. You can't go flying off the surface without reaching escape velocity, which is proportional to gravity. And you can't see the motion, except as compared to incredibly distant objects. If the earth was a basketball, you would certainly notice the spinning, but you would only have one breath of air before your atmosphere disappeared. (There is some truth that WIND is partly created by the spinning, but other factors have more hold.)

    The best shooters in the world don't hit targets accurately beyond 1 mile with regularity. So the earth's curve does not matter one iota. But rockets and missiles are always launched with the earth's curvature and spin in mind, especially on return. The best examples of this are the reentry windows that spacecraft have to follow in order to land in the appropriate places. Entire missions were planned around these windows.

    Why do we need cell towers and ground infrastructure still, with satellite technology so pervasive and emerging? Let's see . . . high initial cost, high chance of failure, high chance of accidental and purposed interference, low chance of redundancy or an easy fix, etc. etc.

    Just because we disagree with a Flat Earth, it does not mean that we are confused or dazzled by CGI. It does not mean that we are intimidated by authority or incapable of independent thought. It simply means that we know the truth, and that you're cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Just joking! But not joking. Kind of.

    (Continued Below)

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    1. There has been a propaganda campaign waged against the general public for more than fifty years now, with the objective of persuading people that “UFOs” are not real, and if they were, then they would be the vehicles of “little green men”. This campaign has been remarkably effective and members of the public in general will immediately dismiss flying discs as being “impossible” and not something which any sane person would consider for a moment. This attitude is based on an almost total lack of knowledge of the facts. There are at this time, large numbers of flying discs, built by humans and capable of spectacular flight abilities. There are two varieties: those which need the atmosphere to operate and those which don’t.

      The small selection of forty-seven patents put together by Patric kelly is restricted to just those which have the well-known “flying saucer” shape. Do you seriously think that not a single one of these patents had a test prototype which flew or that they were all piloted by “little green men”?

      In the early 1900s, Nikola Tesla designed and built what he described as his “flying machine”. This was a small device without wings and which ‘flew’ without the use of a fuel. This design of Tesla’s was taken by the Germans and during World War II, developed and experimented with. After the war, it was taken to the USA and developed further at Groome Lake, and at this time, the US, UK, Canadian and Russian governments have got large working copies which they keep as secret as they possibly can. One major cover story is that these craft belong to “extraterrestrials” who have such an advanced level of technology that we will never be able to understand it. It is a good story, as it is not possible to disprove it. If you want a good deal of specific information on this, then read “The Hunt for Zero Point” by Janes researcher and writer Nick Cook.

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  27. You cannot be agnostic on the issue. And you shouldn't want to be, since the Greek form that led to the word was one of "ignorance, not knowing." But more to the point, you are entirely wrong if you think that this is an argument over beliefs and thoughts. No, this is sadly an argument over verifiable FACT. The truth of this can be found out by any one of us by any number of practical experiments, or by simply walking out the front door and heading in a straight line for long enough. And because it's a discoverable FACT that the earth is an oblate spheroid, there are only a handful of acceptable reasons why a flat earther would continue the argument:

    1. That person is too lazy or disinterested to walk a long, straight line.
    2. That person is too untrusting to listen to those who have walked a long, straight line.
    3. That person is seeking affirmation or relevance by holding a contrarian viewpoint that could only come from the most avant garde of positions.
    4. That person is otherwise unqualified to accept and exercise the scientific process.
    5. That person has no real-world experience.

    And so on and so forth. Of course, even now that the Flat Earth has been disproven for millennia, we can still expect to see it defended by the occasional fringe warrior, but the inevitable truth is still this: ALL of our math, ALL of our science, ALL of our various map projections, and ALL of our explorations stand proudly behind a spinning globe. And 99% of us get that.

    If you can't get that, then I'm tempted to believe that you do so for personal or philosophical reasons. Frankly, at that point, it becomes too much of a Plato/Aristotle argument for my taste:

    "What's a chair?"
    "It's something you sit on."
    "Then is a table a chair?"
    "No. You shouldn't sit on it."
    "Then is a saddle a chair?"
    "What is the form of the thing?"
    "What is this BALL that you speak of?"
    "Am I alive?"
    "I argue, therefore I am."

    UGGGGHHHHHH. GO AWAY!

    Jeremy

    P.S. Let's assume for just a moment that even a Flat Earther believes in Gravity. On a much smaller scale, this force is responsible for turning liquids into floating droplets in space. And the same can be said for raindrops before they begin to fall from a cloud and then elongate into a teardrop shape. If you can understand this most basic thing, then you will grasp the obvious . . . we have been looking into space since the Creation, and ALL of the heavenly bodies that we've come across, excepting those in a state of decay or rebirth, are clearly, positively, distinctly, unmistakably. . . SPHERICAL. That is because gravity causes the natural world to solidify and accrete into orbs with equally distributed mass.

    To not acknowledge this is disingenuous, and those who would argue it are going to have a hard time adding any real or perceived value to a serious discussion, which was Gary's point about spreading the Gospel.

    P.P.S. The number 8 is also the sign for infinity. So Shemini Atzeret is a great jumping off point for us to start our eternity.

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  28. Jeremy

    Good Luck with Shemini Atzeret or any other Jewish Holy Day.
    Like I said before, I don't care one way or the other what you believe about the environment in which you live in.

    Jesus said the sign of the Mesiah is the sign of the Prophet Jonah.
    Paul said Jewish Holydays are shadows of things to come for the Church (Body of Christ).
    There is no Jewish Holyday for the Asension of the Body of Christ.

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    1. Gregg, I think the point Gary made in his initial article about Flat Earth views interfering with advancing the gospel is aptly demonstrated here with your date proposal for the Rapture. You've proven beyond all doubt that you lack logical reasoning when it comes to something the rest of the world knows is true a our Earth, so you have lost all credibility at expecting anyone to believe you are using logic for any other argument. If you wish to advance the gospel with an unbeliever, I suggest you don't bring up the Earth. At all, ever.

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    2. Sherrill777

      Iam not convinced talking about flat or ball earth theories are Dis advancing the gospel.
      I don't propose date setting about the Rapture.
      Anyone with an objective view can look at anything and make an intelligent decision on any subject.
      The unbeliever as you put it is already subjected to flat and ball earth theories just by going to public schools.
      There are other books of the "Bible" the puritans took out, but the Catholics kept in, not all but most of them. Which talk of the Heavens and their Gates, how they are ordered by Angels.
      So my question to you and others is, "Why are you so fearful or sensitive about the subject"?

      I just googled "Gravity" the so-called glue that holds the atmosphere to the earth, and a lot of techno babble, to make a long story short. Then the story continues on how the atmosphere is formed 5bill yrs ago and on and on the babbling continues.

      If you want to wrap your head around that be my guest.

      God said He created; they say differently.

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    3. Hi Gregg,

      I thought I was done here but I feel compelled to respond one more time. Warning – lots here, maybe 4 pages, sorry.

      I whole heartedly agree with Sherrill777 that the flat earth theory interferes with proclaiming the Gospel. First, people need to believe that what you tell them is credible. Since the lion’s share of the people on the planet, dare I say greater than 98 percent, believe that the earth is round – this would include people that do not live in our spoiled, comfortable western style civilization. Let assume you are correct, it does not matter since they will not find the hypothesis credible so they are not likely to listen to the Gospel message. Let’s play this out a bit.

      You want to spend time convincing me (or someone) that the everything I believe about the world and the universe, regardless of whether or not it’s actually true, is false. You would have a tall mountain to climb. You would want me to seriously consider that anything else you say about the Bible, God or Jesus. If I am one who believes in the evolutionary model and a fifteen-billion-year old universe – and you’re going to tell me about a man named Jesus that I have been taught is a myth and try to knock those beliefs down, three strikes and you’re out. A flat earth, created earth, created man, and Jesus, you lost me sixty seconds into the conversation. Now add the Bible which was written by men most of whom have been dead over two thousand years, bye.

      However, if you focus on building relationships and not trying to convince anyone of anything except that there is real God and He really cares about you and you can really know Him, maybe you can get someone’s attention. This is particularly true today when we live in a world where people are taught the black is white and white is black and they are so confused that they can no longer think for themselves. Meet them at their most basic need – to be heard – without condemnation; after all Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well or the scorned harlot who was accused of being caught in the act! Now you are in a position to lead them, with questions, into the sphere (no pun intended) of God and the need for salvation. This is easy for me to type, but I will be the first to admit, not so easy to do. Listen, yes, evangelize, not so much.

      So why such the pushback on the flat earth theory. Great question, I’m glad you asked. It has been my experience that debating with a flat earther is very much the same a debating with an evolutionist or an evolutionary puppet. In fact, based on the history in the previous articles I linked, the flat earth ideas, at least in the modern era came very much from an evolutionary mindset. And to be sure evolutionary theory is very much in vogue these days as pushed in the media and the schools (including the universities). My experience debating these folks has never been satisfying and I have no idea if it was fruitful, all I know is that I have been called a lot of names.

      continued...

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    4. Scientists who believe in Creation that are currently employed in higher education need to be extremely careful as the blackballing is real. If you have not seen the 2008 documentary “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” featuring Ben Stein, it is well worth the watch. So your position on education is not without merit; however, we just cannot just use a broad brush and try to discredit the whole shebang. If all the science that we are taught was wrong, as noted in a previous post, we would not have cell phones, computers (which is what a modern cell phone is), we would not be taking about modifying DNA using mRNA (this is very real) and trying to reprogram the human genome, there would be NO satellites in space to facilitate global communications. No modern conveniences.

      As a side note, if you don’t believe that satellites are there, look up Starlink: Starlink Satellite train SPACEX seen from earth), an Elon Musk endeavor – BTW I have seen them with my own eyes.) See a technical explanation: How Starlink Works. This in and of itself is a good proof that the earth is a sphere (I do not like the word round – it’s not specific enough and to clarify the earth and most heavenly bodies are oblate spheroids.)

      This is only the beginning. Let look at just two more spherical earth data points. In this link: 10 easy ways you can tell for yourself that the Earth is not flat you will find a Popular Science article. Now before I go on, I’m not a fan of everything Popular Science prints, in fact I have seen them propagate lies for the sake of something other than the truth. But not all their journalism or science is bad. This article contains some great pictures take from ISS (International Space Station). And this link: stationcdrkelly is from Astronaut Scott Kelly’s Twitter page; he has been in orbit often and has taken some extraordinary photo of the earth that clearly show its spherical shape; he too is referenced in the PS article.

      continued...

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    5. The second data point goes back to your comment about microwaves where I asked you a question that you would not address. Well I have decided to answer it. But first a wee science lesson. Light travels at approximately 3 x 10E8 m/s (meter per-second) where 10E8 means 10 to the 8th power in what we believe to be a vacuum or free space (we really do not know what that means but for now that is good enough). Free space has a refractive index of 1. However, in water, light travels at only 2.25 x 10E8 m/s. Water has a refractive index of about 1.33. If you take a glass of water and place a pencil in the water such that it sticks out of the water at some angle, then look at the pencil in the water, it will appear to be bent at a different angle (unless its straight up and down). This is because the light that reflects off the pencil (not the pencil itself) is actually bent (exact math is provided upon request). An even more convincing illustration would be to use a pen light laser pointer and direct that into the water. If you point the laser straight into the water, that is, perpendicular to the surface of the water, the light will not bend but go straight down to the bottom of the glass. Then as you increase the angle of the laser with respect to the surface of the water, you will see that the laser beam in the water does not bend quite so much, again due to we call refraction. Now here is where is gets interesting. If we could put the laser in the water (not recommended as will likely ruin your laser pointer) and point it at the surface, then increase the angle at which the beam strikes the surface you will observe that when the angle with respect to the normal (the normal is the line perpendicular to the interface between the water and the air) reaches about 49 degrees and beyond, the laser beam gets reflected back into the water. This is called total internal reflection. If you happened to have a curved piece of solid plastic, you could see how the light can be contained in the plastic. They make toys that conduct light through a curved fiber (Toysmith Fiber Optic Light Physics Science Kit ) and this exactly the physics involved when the refractive index of plastics or glass is greater that if air. It does not have to air.

      Now the reason that microwaves can bend around the curvature of the earth and extend beyond line of sight is because this phenomenon can occur between different layers of the atmosphere where the refractive indices are just enough different as to trap the microwaves and propagate them between the layers. This also happens with regular radio waves, best illustrated with short wave and AM bands. I use to live in NY and on certain nights when the ionosphere was at the proper altitude, I could listen to the Detroit radio station CKLW. This was call DXing (distance listening, I do not recall where the X part came from). Because of reflection and refraction, one can sometimes receive electromagnetic waves that are thousands of mile away in spite of the curvature of the earth. If the earth were flat, it would all the time, not just when the atmospheric conditions are right.

      continued...

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    6. I could go on and on and on with other phenomenon, but this should be enough to illustrate that much of the science is real. That science is called empirical or operational science – it works, it always works. The science that does not work well is theoretical or historical science. Neither of these types of science are useful for making things work and they are often filled with presumptuous assumptions. But operational science is what permits us to discover our universe and our biology; It allow us to better see the wonders of God's Creation, not make of fairy tales that we tell our children about how we came from nothing by accident – that is impossible and irrational.

      There is one other thing I would like to address and perhaps I misunderstood your comment Gregg. But this @Gregg: ‘There are other books of the "Bible" the puritans took out, but the Catholics kept in, not all but most of them.’ It sounds like you are saying that the Puritans took out most of the books (I could be reading this wrong) from the Catholic canon. But my understanding is that the Puritans used the Geneva Bible which contain all 66 book of the modern Protestant version such as the KJV, RSV, NIV, etc. However, the Catholic canon contained on 73 book so only 7 books were left out (granted some others were a wee bit different such as Daniel). That is not most. We could discuss Catholic theology to see why some of the apocrypha were left in Catholic canon but that is a completely different discussion topic that has nothing to do with the subject at hand – it is just moving the goal posts – a common debating tactic used when one cannot directly refute the tenants of the subject.

      -Joe

      P.S. please forgive any and all grammatical errors, I’m sure there are many:-)
      P.P.S let me know if you ever want to discuss gravity, the most well documented and studied force (thing F = ma) but not at all understood. Don’t believe everything you read on the internet :-).

      The End

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  29. I don't claim to know when the Rapture will happen, and I will take every chance to explore every option on every Jewish feast or holy day. And I have no qualms about that.

    I try to stay open-minded, and I'm even considering the points that you've brought up in the past. Feel free to give me the time and date, if you know, and I'll be more than happy to put it on the calendar.

    Jeremy

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    1. Hi Jeremy

      Well, you can know.

      Without going into detail, the next First Fruits is April 9th at sunset Jewish time.
      The dead must rise first and go into Jerusalem and spread the word, then 40 days later Body of Christ goes up in a moment of time.

      Thats it.

      Delete
    2. Gregg,

      I appreciate you cling to the 40 days later rapture of the church concept but Scripture does not support this in terms of what Paul teaches on the harpazo. "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and [emphasis "and"] we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:52b ESV)

      An examination of (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) with an eye on the word "then" as in, "Then we who are alive..." shows there is no temporal offset or delay between the dead in Christ rising and those who are alive being raised. Indeed, Scripture plainly states,

      17 Then we who are alive, who
      are left, will be caught up together
      with them in the clouds to meet
      the Lord in the air, and so we will
      always be with the Lord.

      (1 Thessalonians 4:17 ESV)


      Chapter four closes with this exhortation from Paul,

      18 Therefore encourage one
      another with these words.

      (1 Thessalonians 4:18 ESV)


      I encourage one and all to dig out your Concordance (print or virtual) and lean on these words. Biblehub.com is most useful and provides this regarding "Then" of verse 17,

      1 Thessalonians 17, textual analysis (Parallel Greek)
      Greek Concordance "แผ”ฯ€ฮตฮนฯ„ฮฑ"
      Strong's Concordance (G1899) "แผ”ฯ€ฮตฮนฯ„ฮฑ"

      This is not to say that Ascension Day may not be the Day of our Blessed Hope. I am, with all due respect, (once again) pointing out that a 40-day delay between the raising of the dead and the change of those alive is not Scripturally accurate.

      PR



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  30. 11/11

    November 11, 2022 and November 11, 2023 are interesting days on the calendar for these years. Not just that the fact they are Armistice Day or Veteran's Day, depending on your domicile, but that they correspond to the day the flood began and ended in order!

    11 In the six hundredth year
    of Noah's life, in the second
    month, on the seventeenth
    day of the month, on that
    day all of the fountains of the
    great deep burst forth, and
    the windows of the heavens
    were opened.

    (Genesis 7:11 ESV)


    Looking to the civil calendar provided by chabad.org we find that the second month and seventeenth day fall on Friday, November 11, 2022 or what is otherwise known as 17 Cheshvan, 5783...the day the Great Flood began.

    That is interesting in and of itself but more interesting is what follows next year.

    14 In the second month, on the
    twenty-seventh day of the month,
    the earth had dried out.

    (Genesis 8:4 ESV)


    Saturday, November 11, 2023, also known as 27 Cheshvan, 5784 is the 27th day of the second month of the civil calendar -- the day the flood ended.

    I have not searched the calendar to see how often these dates occur like this but I have it that they do not occur any time soon and not with any regularity. Worthy of some study perhaps?

    If we were to look hard at Ascension Day because of the sign of Jonah, so also did Christ warn us that it would be as in the days of Noah. (Matthew 24:37-39) If to look to one then it is worth looking at the other. (Note the judgement of 40-days associated with Noah as with Jonah).

    Friday, November 11, 2022 + 40-days = Wednesday, December 21, 2022 (Winter Solstice in the northern hemisphere)

    This is the day that the flood rains ceased according to Chabad.org.

    This may lead one to ask, "May we expect a judgement upon the earth in this time?" What, if any, shadow is provided by the end of the "war to end all wars" to prophetic events today? The world certainly seems at a boiling point. The enemy pressing hard against the gates. How much longer until the restrainer is removed?

    We are still in the window for a 2029 return before Yom Kippur but if the end of the generation is marked by the departure of the two witnesses? (Psalm 90:10) A 2030 return is in play as well.

    Watch. Wait. Work. Witness!

    PR









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  31. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    I'm not sure if it would even be possible but imagine how much MORE we would want the Rapture if the "dead in Christ" were going to be hanging around in the clouds for 40 days, waiting for us to meet them!

    Of course, the bigger problem might be that we would have to ignore the Lord's TRUMPET and COMMAND for 40 days.

    Jeremy

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  32. PR and Jeremy

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:10

    Here we have Paul adressing there concerns about what happens to us when we die as Christians.

    1. Concerning them which are asleep.

    2. Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    3. we which are alive.........shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Then 1 Thessalonians 4:16 happens, ......and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

    1 Thess 4:17 is not a simaltanious event.

    Who are "the dead in Christ rising" referncing, and for what perpose?

    Then Paul tells us to watch and be alert.

    So whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    If all this is a simultaneous event, why should we watch and be alert for any of it, we won't have enough time to react let along think about the event.


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    Replies
    1. 16 For the Lord himself will descend
      from heaven with a cry of command,
      with the voice of an archangel, and
      with the sound of the trumpet of God.
      And the dead in Christ will rise first.

      (1 Thessalonians 4:16 ESV)


      The dead in Christ are all of those who placed their trust in Christ Jesus and ascended to heaven on their passing. They are now living spirits in the presence of God. They have no physical body as they represent the second order of the resurrection of the righteous. The dead in Christ. The first order of the resurrection of the righteous was the saints (Jews) who died and descended to Abraham's Bossom (Sheol) on their death. These are the captives that were set free from what Jesus called Paradise when He descended into Hell after dying on the Cross of Calvary.

      On the Day of the resurrection (Rapture) the dead in Christ will be physically raised having eternally glorified bodies. Then we who are still awake (alive) will be physically changed likewise and taken along with those who have been sleeping in Christ. This is not a simultaneous event with both being taken at the same time. First the dead in Christ then we who remain. One immediately follows the other in quick succession.

      We watch and stay awake because we are commanded to do so. We have all the law and the prophets to warn of what is coming. (See the parable of Lazarus and the rich man). By faith we are ready and don't need time to react. There is nothing to think about. The decision is already made.

      Either we abide in Christ and claim the atoning sacrifice of His shed blood on the cross or we don't. Either we trust Jesus for the remission of our sins or we don't. God has already done everything necessary for our salvation. Either we believe or we don't. Therefore, we do not need enough time to think about the event. Only the new church yet to be born needs the time to think about it. Those who take the time to think about it will become the Tribulation Saints. They are those that were left behind.

      The whole point being our primary mission in life as Jesus commanded,

      19 "Go therefore and make disciples
      of all the nations, baptizing them in the
      name of the Father and of the Son and
      of the Holy Spirit,

      20 teaching them to observe all that
      I have commanded you. And behold,
      I am with you always, to the end of
      the age."

      RED LETTERS (Matthew 28:19-20 ESV)


      This is the reason why we should watch and be alert. To wisely use the time we are given. That while it is day we may make disciples and baptize them in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy. To make disciples of all the nations (peoples). That is why we watch, wait, work and witness. We watch that we know how short the time is. We wait for the hour of His coming on the clouds. We work believing in the One whom the Father sent; loving God and loving others as we love ourselves. We treat them the way we hope to be treated and witness to all the ways God has loved us pouring out His merciful grace in our lives. We share with the lost the wonder of the way He loves us and saved us. We testify to the One who died for us and rose on the third day.

      Jesus.

      Delete
    2. When Jesus ascended, 40 days after He rose, he took with him those saints who rose with him 40 days earlier, those that were seen by many in the holy city. 

      They were the token, of the full harvest yet to come, just as the omer of barley (the flour) , made from the sheaves of barley picked on Firstfruits, and waved before the Lord, was the token of a full harvest yet to come.

      That’s what Paul means when he tells the Thessalonians, in chapter 4 at verse 16 & 17,  that the dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain are caught up together with them in the twinkling of an eye, to be with the Lord forever.

      And in fulfillment of the shadow cast by that event on resurrection day, many of the newly resurrected dead in Christ, will be seen by many, just as they once were seen in the holy city.

      That is the warning sign God gave us to know that our redemption is only 40 days away!

      Delete
    3. I understand what you've been saying, Gregg and have said for some time now. Nowhere in Scripture is it given that Jesus rose ten days before Pentecost with the saints that rose after His resurrection. All we have is that Jesus ascended to heaven on a cloud and that among those watching were two men (angels), which for all we know were the two witnesses, who said that Jesus would return in the same way He went. On a cloud. (Acts 1:8-11)

      Scripture records some of the dead rising after the resurrection of Christ in (Matthew 27:51-53) and only in Matthew and never speaks of them again. They are a mystery and a mystery that scholars have fought over for centuries. Some of the most common theories of what happened to them include,

      1) These saints were apparitions or ghosts
      2) These saints were raised much like Lazarus was raised, bodily but not glorified
      3) These saints were raised and glorified resurrections (your assertion)

      But ALL of these are conjecture and not given as Scriptural fact. Scripture doesn't speak of them again and therefore we cannot and should not teach a 40th day ascension with Christ as fact. That is misleading and wholly conjecture.

      Please by all means believe it if you will. I am not writing this to change your mind. I write this to testify to the fact that what you have been posting here for so long is not supported by Scripture and is in fact a mystery not solved by scholars over the centuries. By all means believe it if you must -- however the assertion that these saints rose with Jesus after 40 days is not given anywhere in Scripture. It is conjecture.

      That is my point and why I've invested so much time on the topic for the benefit of those who come here to learn and grow in faith and Word.

      If it's true that Jesus took all of those who rose after His resurrection with Him to heaven on that Day, GREAT!!! We'll find out when we get Home. Until then we just don't know and to speak as though we did is not good teaching.



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    4. If anyone were to ask what do I believe? If I were to think about the known facts of the event and established historical Scripture I know the following,

      1. God breathed life into Adam (man)
      2. God breathed life into the body of Jesus resurrecting Him from the dead

      Could that breath had such power that it spilled over to the graves of those nearby? Maybe. If so would it be that much different from the raising of Lazarus? Maybe not. If so then those saints, not all of the righteous dead (only some of them) who were raised would have lived for a time and died again. Perhaps only ones who had died in the past couple of days? Four days or less? Who knows? I don't but I can imagine a lot!

      I do know that the region around Jerusalem is tectonically active. Evidence shown in the Dead Sea shows an earthquake of magnitude did occur near the time of 32 AD. (See Rick Larson's "Christquake") That could account for the outpouring and power of G-D moving on that day. Rick terms this as though the gavel of G-D had fallen on sin declaring the matter case closed! Was this the only quake in the days of Calvary? No. There was a quake on the morning of the third day! (Matthew 28:2) Was this the quake spoken of by Matthew? Maybe...

      We could ask another question. Did Lazarus ascend with Jesus on the 40th day? If not, why? If God raised Jesus and Jesus is God and Jesus, by the power of God raised Lazarus from the grave; why wouldn't Jesus take Lazarus with Him? Maybe He did?!! The Bible is silent on this matter. It appears that Lazarus was raised to life and not glorified as will be at the resurrection. He was restored to living flesh and blood and raised after four days in the grave. Could the rest of those who were raised after the resurrection of Jesus been much the same? Could be. Who knows? All we know for sure is that it was SOME of those who were in the grave that were raised. It's all conjecture and a thought experiment which I for one applaud and encourage in this place. That said, it is just a thought experiment and that alone. It is not the gospel and based upon truths given in Scripture but not Scripture itself.

      Blessings

      In the end, the question is a faith question and not bound to salvation.

      Delete
    5. Correction: "It is not the gospel and based upon truths given in Scripture but not Scripture itself." should be,

      "It is not the gospel BUT based upon truths given in Scripture but not Scripture itself."

      Proof-reader untie!

      Delete
    6. Good thoughts, Pastor Rich! It really is interesting to consider what happened with whoever was resurrected. I can't remember who or where i read it, but someone speculated that those who were resurrected were all recently dead, and thus recognizable to those alive (adding evidence to those who saw them that they were indeed resurrected rather than just claiming to be ancient saints or something).

      Delete
    7. Hi Sherrill,

      I agree, it is interesting to consider and I agree with your thought that they who were raised we recently died (perhaps in the past couple days) and raised much as any of the others God raised through Jesus in Scripture. We know they are not ancient saints as they had all be taken out of Paradise when Jesus came to town. Remember, even Daniel was told to wait until the end. (See my musings below). Given that the area around the tomb of Jesus was a burial ground it makes sense that the quake split the rocks of those tombs as well. Further hints that this was a localized event and not broader in scope. It was a local event to Jersualem for sure!

      Delete
  33. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  34. LIZ TRUSS RESIGNS

    British Prime Minister Liz Truss has resigned her post after six weeks in office. She took office on September 6, 2022 and resigned today -- serving only 44 days in office. The shortest term of any British PM.

    Forty-four days is six weeks, two days. Six weeks is 42 days. Some interesting numbers as fun facts! She took office on 10 Elul, 5782, the day remember as when Noah opened the window of the Ark and dispatched a raven to determine if the flood waters had begun to recede. (Genesis 8:6-7) You may recall that the raven went, "to and fro until the waters dried up from the earth."

    Today is October 20, or 25 Tishrei according to Chabad.org. Torah reading for today is Bereshit or (Genesis 1:1-13). An end and a beginning.

    Hmmm...

    These are very interesting times we're living in.

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  35. The prophecy and event will conclude as it's supposed to.
    What makes you think that you are going to see hear anything?
    The descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the Arcangel is to rase the dead in Christ for another 40-day Jonah warning, in Israel.
    This about getting the Jews attention, not the Church, but we benefit from it by watching for this event (the dead rising and going into Jerusalem).

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    1. The last time G-d descended upon a mountain with a shout of a trumpet all Israel heard it. You couldn't miss it. That was the first Pentecost. The harpazo by definition is a public display,

      Strong's (G726)

      harpรกzล – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

      G-d awoke the dead in an earthquake that split the rocks and opened the tombs. That too was a public display.

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    2. Yes, the Rapture is a public display in a moment of time to all new creatures in Christ Jesus on Earth.
      The dead rising this time in Israel is for the Jews a warning Jonah sign and Shadow. And a public display.
      Paul told the Thessalonians what happens to us when we die.

      Delete
    3. The warning that is given to Israel is the Law and the Prophets. Scripture, that for the most part the Jews don't know nor read (if street evangelists like Zev Porat are right) is their warning. This is born out by Jesus Himself through (Luke 16:29),

      29 "But Abraham said, 'They have
      Moses and the Prophets; let them
      hear them.'"

      RED LETTERS (Luke 16:29 ESV)


      Jesus Himself teaches that Israel has already had a warning and that they do not listen. The parable continues,

      31 "He [Abraham] said to him, 'If they
      do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
      neither will they be convinced if
      someone should rise from the dead.'"

      RED LETTERS (Luke 16:31 ESV)

      Delete
    4. THINKING OUT LOUD

      Now that we've been talking about those who were raised after Christ was resurrected it has been on my mind almost non-stop. Lazarus has been a key part of that thinking. I think it safe to say that Lazarus was not raised to life in a glorified form. He was raised like others in New Testament accounts as living flesh and blood with mortality intact albeit raised from the dead.

      The question remains...what happened to Lazarus? We know that the church saints, those in Christ, are waiting for the resurrection rapture to be raised/taken and be changed (glorified). This is what we know as the second order of the resurrection of the Saints. (Another topic!) This is our putting off of the corruptible and temporal for the incorruptible and eternal body. That will come at the harpazo for the body of Christ.

      Was this raising of some of the dead a general resurrection? No. It was limited. Limited to who though? Limited to tombs that were close to that which held Jesus for three days and nights? Could be. We can already expect that not all of those buried nearby were raised. Scripture says only some were raised. Why?

      Perhaps it has something to do with when they were buried? Lazarus was raised after four days. Jesus was raised after three days. His body saw no decay, no corruption. (Psalm 16:10) But *if* those buried nearby were entombed within days of Passover then perhaps these are the ones who were raised.

      Why?

      Good question. They were raised according to G-d's purpose and His divine grace. They were likely raised not by accident but on purpose with a purpose. This aspect *may* have been a sign for the Jews of the day of the resurrection to come. Emphasis, *may*. But if they were raised as mortal flesh (again) then they would have lived and died again at some point in time. (Scripture is silent on this).

      Which brings me back to Lazarus. We all know that Lazarus was mortally raised by Jesus who prayed to the Father then called Lazarus out from the tomb by name. (John 11:41-43) Lazarus rose again and walked out of the tomb. Six days later they were eating together at the home of Mary, Martha and Lazarus in Bethany -- but we don't have much more to go on for Lazarus after this. It is assumed he went on with his life although Lazarus had a tendency to draw a crowd and caught the attention of the religious authorities who wanted to kill him. Past that we can only assume that Lazarus lived and died again at some point in time.

      Could the same be true of those who were raised after Jesus was resurrected from the dead? Considering what we know about Lazarus it seems possible. None of the resurrections given in Scripture were glorified. Only Jesus was glorified in His resurrection. All others are waiting the resurrection of the Saints at the Rapture. All of those in Christ that is. The righteous dead of Israel will continue to wait until the end. (Daniel 12:13)

      This is just a thought exercise following patterns given in Scripture. Perhaps you could use it as the basis of a Bible study? If so, please by all means do! Hopefully it stirs thought and deeper exploration in prayer on the topic if it interests you. I pray it is a blessing.

      Grace and peace to you,


      PR

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    5. More thoughts to ponder

      In the parable of the “rich man and lazarus” Jesus references Abrahams bosom or paradise, and the Rich man being in torment and a great gulf fixed which you can see but can’t cross over.

      During the crucifixion Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

      Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

      And, on that day appointed for the Ascension,  Ephesians 4:8-10 tells us that when He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, fulfilling that earlier prophecy made in Psalm 68:18.

      So on passover Jesus is crucified and the other one, that He takes with Him to paradise.
      descended first into the lower parts of the earth and takes Paradise with Him.
      Then on resurrection 3 days later Mary goes to the tomb and bumps into Jesus, He tells her to stop touching me for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

      And now we have the many bodies of the saints going into Jerusalem talking about there own resurrection.

      Then 40 days later the apostles are watching Him go up and a cloud received Him out of there sight and the angles tell them He’s coming back just like the way He left.

      In 1 Corinthians 15:6 Paul say’s Jesus was seen by over 500 brethren at once.

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  36. So, I am Confused. I thought when we died, we go to Heaven, but this doesn't seem to be the case. When do we actually go to Heaven after death? Does this mean our loved ones haven't ascended yet? Also, when the Rapture does happen, we don't go to heaven right away, but walk the earth first trying to get more people saved, for 40 days, then we ascend?

    Please help me understand because I thought the term, dead in Christ, meant that the person turned from God not that they were actually dead.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

      It seems pretty clear that when we as Christians die, we go home to be with the Lord, as we are His and He will take care of us. There is a little bit of mystery as to the exact nature of such existence, I've heard some interpret it more metaphorically, as Christ keeping and preserving the person's soul in some way, and others more literally, such as the person being directly, consciously present with the Lord (including being able to think, communicate, remember, etc.) in some temporary spiritual form.

      That, however, is not the end, as there is one event yet to occur: the Rapture/resurrection. This is when the dead in Christ (believers who are literally physically dead at the time of the resurrection) AND those [Christians] who are still alive and remain (hopefully us, right now) receive their glorified bodies, meaning actual bodies which will no longer be of flesh and blood, but Spirit, and will be immortal and incorruptible, yet visible, as we later rule and reign with Christ during the Millenial kingdom. Most Christians believe the unsaved will not be resurrected until the Great white throne judgement, which is to occur after the Millenium ends and before we move to Eternity.

      As for the 40 day gap, it is possible, but I do not think it's the mainstream way of thinking amongst most watchmen. I personally lean towards thinking the resurrection/glorification and the Rapture happen very quickly one after the other, perhaps pretty much simultaneously, but I'm not even close to being dogmatic about it, if the Lord chooses to have us minister here on Earth after our glorification, then so be it, we have nothing to worry about at that point anyway.

      Delete
    2. Paladin

      Finally someone who gets it, geez !

      Paul sets the Thessalonians straight about the asleep one's in Christ Jesus that He brings with Him when He descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of the Arc angel and the dead in Christ rise and go into the holy city and preach, warn for 40 days (thats the Jonah sign and shadow) whats about to happen.
      What we are supposed to do is recognize it and warn others of that event and the impending judgement.
      And at the end of that 40 days we all get changed in a moment of time.

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    3. @ MPaladin
      I was reading on Lyn Melvin's site, and this is what confused me. On the 10/20/22, halfway down, it goes into another article posted before called 'Prophesied Events Before the Rapture.' Halfway through this is 'Signs and Wonders'. This is where it talks about us going through a "Change" and walking on Earth:
      He refers to 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and points out that it is our glorious transformation that will occur in the “twinkling of an eye” but not specifically our exit.
      Then another excerpt from the article is;
      When Ascension Day, came after the 40 days of walking the streets of Jerusalem had expired and Jesus ascended back to Heaven, those who resurrected with Jesus also ascended to Heaven with Him as the “first fruits.”
      I know I just took a few parts but the article is too long to post, but these clips are what I was referring to. The article says what if the Old Testament and New was reversed and this is what could happen for us at the time of the Rapture. (I hope I made sense here.) I am new at posting things, and don't always get what is in my mind on paper.

      Delete
  37. According to the bible, Man is composed of spirit, soul and body. We are all spirit beings, we each have a soul (i.e. our mind / emotions) and we live in a physical body. That is why the bible mentions the Word being so sharp as to separate soul from spirit.

    When Adam sinned, he died spiritually so to speak, even though he was still physically alive (See Romans 5:12). All sinners who have not accepted Christ are spiritually dead. Just as there are different degrees of life (plant life, animal life, human life, resurrection life (or called eternal life), there are also different degrees of death. The second death is worse than the first (see Revelation 21:8).

    When a sinner accepts Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells the person and becomes one with his/ her spirit, so that the person becomes spiritually alive again. As Christians, we possess now eternal life or God's resurrection life! When we walk by faith and in the Spirit, God's resurrection life overflows out of our spirit and permeates our souls and physical bodies so that we can experience healings, peace that surpasses understanding, joy unspeakable, a righteous conscience etc.

    "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10).

    Our current bodies is subject to decay, but when the rapture occurs we will all receive brand new incorruptible bodies like Christ did when he was resurrected. This new body will be able to eat and enjoy food like Christ did after He rose again and ate with the disciples. We will also not be subject to time and space and can appear and disappear in and out of rooms like Christ did.

    As for those Christians who have already passed away or fallen asleep (Christians do not "die" since Christ had died our death for us already), they are immediately in heaven with Christ in their spirit state. They will feel more alive than they've ever felt on earth, since their spirits will no longer be encumbered by their previous decaying bodies. During the rapture, they will receive new bodies as well.

    ReplyDelete
  38. At https://allisrael.com/american-pastor-delivers-sobering-message-of-coming-dark-wave-of-persecution "American pastor delivers sobering message of coming 'dark wave' of persecution" about the coming marginalization and persecution of Christians in the Western World.

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    1. I was speaking with my son and daughter today about 1 Timothy 4:3, since it was mentioned recently; and more specifically, noting how FAST the world had turned to an anti-marriage and 3-D printed, sustainable, planet-friendly anti-meat agenda. Where, even 10 years ago, very few were seriously indulged in such talk, it is all the latest rage amongst the populace now. And, certainly, the media and the elite have guided that discussion at breakneck speed, soon to be aided by the upcoming famine and dissolution of familial trust.

      But that led me back to an encouraging thought. It is confirmation, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that we ARE living in the "latter times." And that is a comfort, when you can see the everyday changes in your small everyday life, as well as the international goings-on and such. It is more evidence that we have known all along that these things WERE coming. And it is proof that we still know WHO comes after those!

      We really are blessed to see these things. And I bet that we can all agree that since the Crucifixion, none have seen more. So, I find myself wondering once again, just how many will find the "strait gate" and the "narrow way" after the Rapture? Just how many will recognize the Rapture at all? Or will they mistake it for another of the world's ridiculous mirages . . . yes, like the flat earth. But more sadly, will it be explained away like the mirages that THEY have all come to AGREE on: evolution, mythology, "ancient" cultures, aliens, mother earth, or the all-powerful human being? They have NEVER imagined themselves larger and more capable than they do now, and yet the Creation has never suffered more for it.

      I sure do hope that while WE are arguing over these important issues, and they are important, that we do not skim too lightly over that number; the number that will see these upcoming events and rekindle memories of past Christian stories, teachings, or online conversations. The number of misguided (since none are uninformed) that will be truly aWOKEn.

      Yes, I disagree with a small few of you on big issues. And I very much dislike it when anyone presumes to know what they CANNOT know with feigned positivity or ignorant surety. But, honestly . . .

      . . . I'm glad that the gate is so clear and so close. And on the other side, the now-important mysteries will give way to bigger answers and larger events. And the greed and pride will give way to a most perfect union, under the rule of one.

      And on that side of the gate, I bet that all of us here will get along famously!

      Jeremy

      P.S. Concerning the verse, " . . . and few there be that find it," how many do YOU think that the few will be? A million? A billion? Any guesses?

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  39. In the Book of 2 Esdras: 14:37-48
    https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_2-Esdras-Chapter-1/

    37 So I took the five men, as he commanded me, and we went into the field, and remained there.
    38 And the next day, behold, a voice called me, saying, Esdras, open thy mouth, and drink that I give thee to drink.

    39 Then opened I my mouth, and, behold, he reached me a full cup, which was full as it were with water, but the colour of it was like fire.

    40 And I took it, and drank: and when I had drunk of it, my heart uttered understanding, and wisdom grew in my breast, for my spirit strengthened my memory:

    41 And my mouth was opened, and shut no more.

    42 The Highest gave understanding unto the five men, and they wrote the wonderful visions of the night that were told, which they knew not: and they sat forty days, and they wrote in the day, and at night they ate bread.

    43 As for me. I spake in the day, and I held not my tongue by night.

    44 In forty days they wrote two hundred and four books.

    45 And it came to pass, when the forty days were filled, that the Highest spake, saying, The first that thou hast written publish openly, that the worthy and unworthy may read it:

    46 But keep the seventy last, that thou mayest deliver them only to such as be wise among the people:

    47 For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the stream of knowledge.

    48 And I did so.

    The UN flag is a flat earth map. Sometimes they like to hide the truth in plain sight.

    The Ball earth theory vs Flat Earth creation, is just another side of the Evolution, big bang theory that sort of stuff.

    This Earth is Satins play ground.
    And there are those who play the role of being a fellow christian, but are really sheep in wolf’s clothing.

    We have the account of Lucifer’s flood, Noah’s flood And the creation of the firmaments separating the waters above, from the waters below.

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  40. Not a Salvation issue.

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    1. Agreed. But maybe Gary is proved right, when he said, above, that there are those who would question a person's salvation simply for believing in a spherical Earth with passion.

      " . . . prompted some to even suggest those that believe in a round earth are believing the lie and the deception and perhaps may not even be saved."

      I do not think that any here would do the same to you, Gregg.

      And I believe that Gary may also be right to say that this "is now becoming a Gospel issue and that means those making such claims are causing tremendous harm to themselves and others."

      But enough of drawing lines in the sand.

      I would definitely recommend the article that was referenced above . . . https://creation.com/refuting-flat-earth . . . and would also like to say two things in addition:

      I met one of the authors at church once, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, and found him to be impressively brilliant. And would also point out that this week was important for the astronomer and geographer both. Evidence for the long-lost star map of Hipparchus has been found under ancient Christian text. Hipparchus was the inventor of trigonometry, the discoverer of equinox precession, and knew the Earth to be a sphere, according to the encyclopedia Brittanica.

      https://phys.org/news/2022-10-hipparchus-stars.html

      Jeremy

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    2. JS

      Your Right "Not a Salvation issue."

      Its a Truth Issue.

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    3. And Jeremy I don't question a person's salvation. I have said over and over again "I don't care what you believe, but I sure get attacked, ridiculed and made fun of for what I believe. Don't I?

      I believe Jesus said "the sign of the Messiah is the sign of Jonah"
      I believe Paul said to the Colossians "the feast of the Jews are shadows of things to come for the Church"
      God always warns His people before hand.
      I just told you that you can know the time not the date.

      But if you did your own research you would know that.

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  42. Jeremy,

    I think the issue isn't about eating meat, but rather it is about the way the meat is produced and consumed. For instance, millions of acres of forests are cleared each year in 3rd world countries to create grazing pastures for cows. Most of the meat is then sold to first world countries, especially in Europe. A huge proportion of the meat ends up discarded when it is unsold or expired. Furthermore, for each cow, only a small percentage of its body is actually used ( mainly the popular cuts like ribeye and sirloin), while the rest of its body is turned into animal feed or fertilizer.

    All this creates a lot of pollution (e.g. methane gas from cow farts) and wastage, and is a huge consumption of natural resources. The industry sustains itself with the exorbitant prices charged for each piece of steak, that increasingly only the rich can afford.

    Personally i love my meat and eat it too, but fun fact to know, during Adam's time before he sinned, no meat was consumed. The animals could talk, and Adam only ate from the fruits of the garden. In heaven, I believe no animals will be killed as well, though we will still continue being able to enjoy eating meat.

    I believe Jesus also does not like wastage, like when He instructed the disciples to collect the uneaten fish and bread into 12 basketfuls of leftovers. God has also instructed us to be good stewards of this earth, which includes the wise managing of earth's resources. It is man's greed and irresponsibility that has led to today's culture of plundering and wastage (just "use and throw").

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    3. JJ,

      I agree with you on several points. We did not eat meat in the Beginning. We do have an important role as stewards. There is pollution, waste, and greed running rampant in every system. And maybe there is plenty of discussion to be had on the finer points of what you've said as well.

      I suppose the real crux of the matter is this: that since the Fall and the Original Sin, there is no trajectory for mankind but down, down, down. The end was always inevitable, and the earth always doomed at the hands of sinners.

      So, in effect, I am not trying to hold the Green Movement to task for their obvious frenzy and paranoia, but rather shining light on the fact that their hope and future is being built on shaky ground if they cannot see the ultimate destination. It's okay to care about the earth, as long as your hope is not in it. It's okay to care about Climate Change, as long as you don't abandon Biblical principles until the more important Regime Change takes place at the hand of Jesus. (And thank God for that.)

      We who are awake can see all of this in the events flourishing around us. We can read about it beforehand in verses written long ago, but finally coming to fruition in our day. We can palpably feel the anxiety and burden that the unbelievers are carrying for a lost world. We can regret that they don't see the bigger and more imminent picture. And we can regret, even more, that they might possibly be overly concerned with one environment, and yet aren't sufficiently concerned with the more pressing matter of reaching the new and improved environment on the Earth to come.

      Gregg,

      I won't guess at which "fellow christians" you are accusing of wearing "wolf's clothing." That seems like the questioning of a person's salvation to me, but it's more important that you hear these particular words from me:

      I am NOT attacking, ridiculing, or making fun of you. What would be the point of brothers hating on each other?! No, Gregg, I am attacking, ridiculing, and making fun of the flat earth idea. And I am trying to draw attention to many other things . . . just like you're doing. And I certainly do need to do more research . . . on a thousand topics. Have I not shown interest in the models and ideas that others put forth on this forum? But let's be real. I believe the case to be closed on the flat earth, as of, say, thousands of years ago, and you have every right to believe otherwise. I see your idea as preposterous. And you feel likewise.

      Of course, I'm disappointed that you won't just go buy some airplane or boat tickets and prove yourself wrong, but I'm far more disappointed that in my entire post at 3:34 pm, you could only latch onto one inconsequential sentence, when the vast majority was driving toward something I thought to be more important; that the flat earth example was a great jumping off point to discussing far larger lies and contortions in the popular worldview. Oh well.

      Jeremy

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  43. Here's an interesting comment:

    "The Mirror Line will consist of two 1,600 feet tall buildings that run parallel to each other across 75 miles of desert, coastal, and mountain landscapes. Prince MBS has claimed he wants the Mirror Line to be ready by 2030, although engineers have said it could take 50 years to construct.The building is so long that it will sit on struts to take the curvature of the Earth into account, and will also have a high speed train line running underneath its length."

    Curvature of the earth. Hmmm!

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11340017/Work-begins-Saudi-Arabias-75-mile-long-megacity-Line.html

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  44. Hello, dear brothers and sisters.
    Check this out: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-doubles-down-dirty-bomb-claim-un-security-council
    "Russia Doubles Down On 'Dirty Bomb' Claim At UN Security Council"

    And the letter they sent, quote: "...
    We urge the Western countries to exert their influence on the regime in Kiev to abandon its dangerous plans threatening international PEACE AND SECURITY.
    ..." [Emphasis mine]

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  45. Dr. Barry Awe is now holding up the anniversary of the start of Noah's Flood as the next prominent Rapture possibility . . . the 17th day of the 2nd month being somewhere around the second week of November this year.

    Just curious if anybody has thoughts, or even models, on that? PR?

    I liked his reference last year to the release of the dove and raven; the dove being pulled back to safety for *seven*, while the raven (Satan) wandered to and fro seems pretty prescient. And there's also the explicit possibility that the second period of judgment starts on the anniversary of the first. So, will it be "as in the days of Noah" very literally?

    Maybe much of the 2022-2029 timeline is still in play, but only if the Rapture-Tribulation gap is almost non-existent. And given the state of international affairs, domestic realities, and social upheaval, it's not at all difficult to see how a Rapture or an Ezekiel-typed conflict could change the world quickly and irreversibly. I can imagine a world where the Christians disappear and, very suddenly, it makes sense for lonely little Israel to be challenged almost immediately for both natural resources and regional control. The economies implode, the bombs explode, and then chaos, which leads to no food production, etc., etc.

    What a crazy, crazy time.

    Jeremy

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    2. Hi Jeremy,

      A couple of thoughts on 17th day of the 2nd Month (Cheshvan 17) for this year...

      Stan @ the 11:11 sign on youtube has been talking about Nov 11 for a while now and even had an interesting dream recently that links in with the date that Noah's flood began, and ended (for this coming year it is Nov 11 2022 - Nov 11 2023 as you mentioned) :

      https://youtu.be/HfgHYyrqEfQ?t=405

      Also interesting (and very full-on) is something called 'the Azovmena Prophecy'. Someone on this forum a year or two back mentioned it - It comes from an American Pastor who ministered in Kyiv Ukraine for 26 years and spoke the dream (thru an interpreter in Ukraine) back in 2007. He saw Russia invading Ukraine and taking over the east and south. He was laughed at by Ukrainians at the time (because it seemed preposterous then) and got death threats from Russians when it went viral. He saw the US starting a nuclear war hitting the eastern parts of Ukraine and Russian cities before Russia responds hitting the US.

      Now I'm normally pretty weary of 'dreams' because there is far too much bogus stuff getting said. And we don't know exactly about either of these vids - time will tell and until then we do our best to test according to scripture, see how they align with current events, and quite often just have to tuck these things away, pondering them in our hearts like Mary did. But what I will say about this Azovmena one is that it is not your run of the mill vague "dream"... I would say that it has been accurate so far with what has occurred with Russia's invasion this year and what stood out to me is how incredibly specific it is - even saying which US cities get hit with nuclear missiles and which are 'sanctuary cities'.

      As I said - very full on if true. Anyway, I only bring it up because the Pastor said the date, but not the year, that he believes he was told it begins. Listen for 10 mins or so if interested from the position set below (and yeah ok, spoiler alert: same month and day - Nov 11!)

      https://youtu.be/e7yTTVb7yJE?t=3296

      As I said, time will tell on both of these but yeah, I agree, what a crazy crazy time to be alive! Exciting though! : )

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    3. Wow, Elgordo, that is truly something.

      I'm not much for dreams myself, not dogmatically, but I've just been burned one too many times. However, I do like that this prophecy is actually sourced before fulfillment (unlike many others who just claim they had a dream about an event that has already transpired) AND the fact that a good chunk of it has come to pass now.

      Also, I do think that given the situation in Ukraine, we are practically in a WW3 scenario already, as the "red line" of each side is way beyond the "red line" of the other one, meaning neither is willing to compromise in such a way that would appease the other side. And if the West continues it's support to Ukraine and they don't just "throw them under the bus", I think conflict with Russia is highly likely.

      One thing that severely disappointed me (I hope it's wrong), is that according to the channel owner's comment, I quote: "Pastor Phillip has said he believes there is over a 90% chance that the rapture will take place on Rosh Hashana in 2026."

      I certainly hope it's sooner than that, but God's will be done and not mine. We're very close either way.

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    4. I read the discussion regarding the passage Matt. 27:52-53. I'd like to add my thoughts on this.
      I've always found this passage to be very confusing and suspicious for a number of reasons. As pointed out earlier, this is the only place where this is mentioned in the bible and not only that but it appears to be completely out of context.
      The context is Jesus's death on the cross. In verse 52 it says that the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose.
      But then it says in verse 53 that they didnt come out of the graves until Jesus resurrection 3 days later. That doesn't make sense. What did they do, lay there awake in thier graves for 3 days until Jesus got up and then they came out and went into town. Huh?
      We know that there are no original manuscripts of the New Testament. The oldest dates back to the 4th century. Unfortunately I think someone between the first and 4th century when making a copy added this to the text. I dont believe this event happened at all.
      I cant prove this and im reluctant to go down this road of deleting scripture just because it doesn't make sense to me. Im sure everyone has something that doesn't make sense to them, thats a slippery slope if everyone did it. Im going to do more research on this.
      Please read this passage excluding verses 52 and 53 and see if it doesn't flow better and make more sense.

      Matt. 27: 51,54
      And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent.
      Now when the centurion and they that were with him watching Jesus saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, they feared greatly saying. Truly this was the Son of God.
      KJV

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    5. Well, they could have been dead for the 3 days and only the graves were open, then when Jesus rose, they could have been resurrected as well.

      Anyway, I'm glad you're reluctant about going down the road of deleting scripture, because if you do, it wouldn't even be a slippery slope, but an absolute floodgate being open, of everybody removing any passages they don't like or understand, atheists and secularists "proving" a bazillion verses to be wrong or contradictory, etc. Even the "good" passages would be in doubt, because if one passage can be wrong, why not multiple? And if multiple, which ones? Maybe many. Then there are people who want to remove Paul completely, some even the whole Old Testament. I'm sure you get my point.

      Like I said in my comment on the Septuagint vs MT (Unsealed, two articles back), I personally believe that God wouldn't allow to muddy the waters of his Word so much to the point where we don't even know what He said. There might be some minor differences across translations, but I trust that the "core" of the text in most of our Bibles is correct, on account of God's preservation using many, many faithful Christians over the ages to diligently watch, keep and transmit His word.

      So I would definitely advise to do some research first before you throw out parts of the Bible, so you have a firm foundation to stand on and you don't have to compromise, which could lead to further compromise. Also, in my humble opinion, it is OK to sometimes not understand everything, none of us do. Look around the Internet, how many interpretations there are of some passages, sometimes almost as many as there are Christians, lol. Point being, the Word of God is complex and mysterious and we haven't been able to fully decode everything after two thousand years of faithful study, so you're not alone in not understanding some parts. As long as you are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ, our great God and Savior, you understand enough to go to Heaven, if you understand the rest, it is merely a very welcome bonus :)

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    6. Hi Jeremy,

      Catching up as it were with work keeping me busy...

      As a matter of fact I do have a new model this one based on the full 80 prophetic years for the age of the last generation. The suggested end day is Sunday, March 21, 2027 (the first full day of Spring for that year). The dates are STRIKING and are a better fit than for a 79 year old generation.

      This model also features a one-year period from the beginning of the flood of Noah (Cheshvan 17) to the end of the same on (Cheshvan 27). That is from 11/11/22 to 11/11/23. I cannot help but wonder if this is a sign of strict judgment given the symbols behind the date (ancient and modern) as well as the blood moon which is but three days before (11/7/22 thru 11/8/22).

      *IF* there was a major event that happened on 11/11 may we consider a harpazo before then? (Thinking global "limited" war event). If so, then there would be one year (10/11/23) before the two witnesses arrive for them to see their full 1,260 day ministry to March 21, 2027. 1,290 days from their modeled arrival would be the mid-point of the 70th week when the daily burnt offering is taken away. 1,260 days from the mid-point is Yom Kippur, 2030 and 1,335 days from the mid-point is Hanukkah I, 2030. All of this is based on a death of the two witnesses on the 80 (prophetic) year mark from the establishment of Israel on 5/14/48. ( 80 years x 360 days/year = 28,800 days )

      Could Cheshvan 17 (on the Pharisee calendar) be the Day of our Blessed Hope? I don't see why not at this point. No, I have not see Barry's video (will have to see what he has to say!) But I cannot help but wonder that given that 11/11/22 and 11/11/23 correspond to Cheshvan 17 and Cheshvan 27 on the civil calendar; what may be waiting for those who dwell on the Earth?

      This model has approximately a one-year gap from harpazo to the beginning of the 70th week. The partial solar eclipse of yesterday was a pretty clear sign as it crossed over Scandanavia/Eastern Europe (NATO), Ukraine, Russia and Iran. The coming blood moon of 11/7-11/8 is another potential major sign spanning from Russia to the Americas covering all of the Ring of Fire.

      Hmmm....

      That's what's on my plate at the moment model-wise!

      PR

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  46. You make some valid points but at the start of your comment please read carefully verse 52. It says that 'the graves were opened and many of the saints which slept 'arose'.
    According to this they 'arose' at the same time the earthquake happened and didnt come out until three days later.
    How do I know that? The word 'and' in verse 52. 'The graves were opened AND many of the saints which slept arose. This was a simultaneous event.
    So again how does this make sense?
    The graves opened AND the saints arose. They hang around the tomb for 3 days pacing the floor until Jesus gets up before going into town. I dont think so.
    Nonsense

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  47. I don't think the word "and" necessarily implies a simultaneous event, perhaps Matthew was giving more of an "overview" in verses up to 52 and then specified the time in 53. But I don't think we'll be able to convince each other here, so I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I do however think that we should respect the writing style of the Bible, which often isn't in line with our modern, scientific, hyper-specific, "computer-like", Greek way of thinking. Like for example the "3 days and 3 nights" debate, some interpret that phrase literally, while others make (imo a pretty strong) argument for idiomatic interpretation in line with "on the third day". And there are many more passages that sound strange to us, but do have sensible interpretations. So I was mostly just advocating for caution rather than providing apologetics, as something that seems like nonsense may turn out to just be misinterpreted or misunderstood.

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  48. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised...

    Building on earlier comments on this topic, consider this. Why were they raised?

    Jesus is the embodiment of the first fruits. The first fruits of the harvest as given in (Leviticus 23:9-14). Are those who were raised after the resurrection of Jesus part of that first fruit sheaf? Or could they represent the grain offering? Or could they represent the drink offering? Either way they clearly testify to who Jesus is and that the resurrection is a very real thing!

    Think about it. Even a bodily raised group of those who had died and were raised after the resurrection, assuming this to be a Resurrection Day event, they would likely be people recently died. Why?

    Because recently died people who were just laid to rest would be recognized and known by everyone who saw them! If King David were raised on that day what do you think the chances of anyone recognizing him? Slim to none I would say! Therefore those who were raised were perhaps all those recently died that would be easily recognized by friends and family in Jerusalem. Their testimony offered PROOF that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Holy One of Israel and that the resurrection is FACT not fiction as the Sadducees would have us believe.

    Their resurrection was PROOF. That's why they were raised. To the glory of G-D!!!

    One consequence of their resurrection may be seen 50 days later on Shavuot (Pentecost). Why were so many there and saved that day? Could it be that the Holy Spirit had worked on that many hearts through the testimony of those raised on that Day? Hmmm, could be! If they saw the miracles performed AND knew that the dead were raised? (Predicted by the way in Essene writings that the Christ would do!) It would be no wonder so many people came to Christ on the day the Spirit was given and the Church of Jesus Christ was born.

    This is another thought exercise but one which draws some natural conclusions based on common sense. A topic worth much more study.

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    1. SIMPLE PRIMER TO THE ORDERS OF THE RESURRECTION

      Keep in mind too the three orders of the resurrection as given through Paul,

      22 For as in Adam all die,
      so also in Christ shall all be
      made alive.

      23 But each in his own order:
      Christ the firstfruits, then at
      his coming those who belong
      to Christ.

      24 Then comes the end, when
      he delivers the kingdom to God
      the Father after destroying
      every rule and every authority
      and power.

      25 For he must reign until he
      has put all his enemies under
      his feet.

      26 The last enemy to be
      destroyed is death.

      (1 Corinthians 15:22-26 ESV)


      So here we have the three (3) orders of the first resurrection. It begins with Christ followed by the bodily resurrection of those asleep in Christ and the translation of the living Christian saints,

      1. Christ (Firstfruits)
      2. His Body the Church (both asleep and awake)
      3. All others (at the end)

      When is the end? The end is when Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,

      14 Then Death and Hades
      were thrown into the lake of
      fire. This is the second death,
      the lake of fire.

      (Revelation 20:14 ESV)


      This is the point at which the Kingdom is presented to the Father. This is the time of the Great White Throne Judgment. After this is the new heaven and the new earth and the Eternal Kingdom.

      Yes, Jesus cleared-out Paradise making the way for them to go to the Father in heaven. This is where they rest to this day -- living spirits in the presence of G-D. Paradise or Abraham's Bossom as it is often called is now empty thanks to God in Christ. Was this a resurrection of the dead? No. It was the relocation of the righteous dead out of Sheol. The captives were set free. But what of them? How long do they have to wait?

      13 "But go your way till the
      end. And you shall rest and
      shall stand in your allotted
      place at the end of the days."

      (Daniel 12:13 ESV)


      This is just a quick primer and not intended to be exhaustive in any way. Perhaps it will provide a point of personal study? I pray it blesses you and yours.

      PR

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    2. And lest I forget,

      4 Then I saw thrones, and
      seated on them were those
      to whom the authority to
      judge was committed. Also
      I saw the souls of those who
      had been beheaded for the
      testimony of Jesus and for
      the word of God, and those
      who had not worshiped the
      beast or its image and had
      not received its mark on
      their foreheads or their hands.
      They came to life and reigned
      with Christ for a thousand years.

      5 The rest of the dead did not
      come to life until the thousand
      years were ended. This is the
      first resurrection.

      (Revelation 20:4-5 ESV)


      I would be remiss to not include the Tribulation Saints in there too! These verses of (Revelation 20) also illustrate the timing and sequence of the orders of the first resurrection.

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  50. Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-27/israel-lebanon-agree-us-brokered-deal-over-gas-rich-waters "Historic Foes Israel and Lebanon End Dispute Over Gas-Rich Waters".

    This could be very prophetic.

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  51. I have read the comments to my comments here and my eyes just glaze over. In verse 52 it clearly indicates that when Jesus died (assuming this is Gods Word) that after Jesus died on the cross that "and the earth did quake and the rocks rent AND the graves were opened and many of the saints which slept arose". The attempt to dismiss the word "AND" is not being honest. "AND the earth did quake AND the rocks rent." Are you going to tell me these two things did not happen at the same time?
    Verse 52
    AND the graves were opened AND many of the saints which slept arose".
    The way this is written ,if the laws of language and common sense have any say, the death of Jesus- the earthquake-the rocks rent-AND the graves were opened AND many of the saints which slept arose" happened at the same time. It doesn't say they arose three days later, it says they went into Jerusalem three days later.
    The way this written these supposed resurrected saints were brought back to life, reanimated when Jesus died. Not three days later! What did they do during that 72 hr. period?
    The reason this doesn't make sense is because it never happened.

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    1. AND, AND, AND, AFTER, AND

      Yet there is the matter of the Greek word "ฮผฮตฯ„แฝฐ" or "after" in verse 53. The Greek text says,

      27.53 and having gone forth out of the tombs after the resurrection of Him they entered into the holy city and appeared

      I would take that literally and that the many who were raised left their tombs after Christ rose on Resurrection Day. That leaves us asking if they were raised at the first quake or the second quake discussed in (Matthew 28).

      The ESV renders verses 51 and 52 like separate thoughts,

      51 And behold, the curtain
      of the temple was torn in
      two, from top to bottom.
      And the earth shook, and
      the rocks were split.

      52 The tombs also were
      opened. And many bodies
      of the saints who had fallen
      asleep were raised,

      53 and coming out of the
      tombs after his resurrection
      they went into the holy city
      and appeared to many.

      The original Greek had no punctuation marks and reads a little differently IMHO. Even so, where were the dead at the time of Christ's death? All were in Sheol. All of them. The righteous dead were in Abraham's Bossom (Paradise). Jesus emptied Paradise after He died on the cross. The many that were raised, were raised bodily (IMHO) just as all the others raised from the dead in the New Testament (Lazarus being one); and lived again as mortal beings.

      I would say this because of the orders of the resurrection. Daniel, one of those released from Paradise (Sheol) was told to wait until the end before he would take his place thus all of the righteous dead would wait as well. (Daniel 12:13) If the many dead were raised glorified then that would make them part of the firstfruits with Christ. A sheaf of the firstfruits if you will. Had they been raised glorified they would have to return to the Father. That then opens a whole bunch of questions regarding Jesus going ahead of us to make a place for us in the Father's house. Physical beings need a physical dwelling. Spirits simply dwell with the Father in heaven. That and the testimony given by Paul on the orders of the resurrection seem to point more toward the many dead that rose that day were mortally raised, went out and returned to their lives like all of the others that were raised by Jesus (and Paul).

      I am not dogmatic on this but this is where I am at this point in my walk and understanding. The big picture points me in this direction for all of the reasons cited above. But to be honest it is not clear which way Scripture goes with this in (Matthew 27). The Greek reads one way and translations render it their way. For this reason I think it wise to consider the broader picture and not try to hang your hat on just a couple verses of Scripture. What does the whole of God's Word say about the topic?

      That's just good old fashioned Bible study. Time well worth spending and highly recommended.

      Happy hunting!

      Delete
  52. This is really all about Evilution VS Creation, and embracing them both as “Pastor Louie Giglio” suggests.

    Genesis 1:1-2:7

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Evolution is a strong delusion taught is public schools and media everywhere. And is the perfect tool to use to combat God's Creation.

    But whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.

    NASA is full of Luciferian symbols in Jewelry, logos on buildings and project names.

    This is not intended to be a personal slam in any way. I respect others' views on the subject.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree about the lie of evolution. But that's a totally separate issue to any others raised in these sets of comments.

      Delete
    2. OLDEST KNOWN MAP OF THE STARS DISCOVERED

      Quoting, CNN,

      Archivists have uncovered a long-lost historical relic hidden underneath a Christian manuscript: the earliest known map of the stars, according to the Museum of the Bible.

      A copy of astronomer Hipparchus’ map of the stars was discovered underneath the Syriac text of John Climacus’ “Ladder of Divine Ascent,” a treatise written in around 600 CE, according to a news release from the Washington, DC-based Museum of the Bible.

      Scholars have long known about Hipparchus’ star catalog because other ancient texts made references about it – but their searches for the document itself were unsuccessful.

      An interesting and significant find!

      The heavens declare His glory! (Psalm 19)

      Delete
  53. Wish you had a print button...too much ink wasted on the pictures to econimcally print out for later reading. :(

    ReplyDelete


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